Dele & Dier

[Style And Glory]

I welcomed these two to the club & watched them grow with the team.
They became integral to the core of our young team's success. And furthermore, under MP they quickly became staples within the England squad.

But I don't think anyone would argue that this season has seen a dip in their form.

Is it fatigue?
They've played league, cups, CL & internationals with hardly a break (except for a couple of weeks in Mykonos with their girlfriends).

Have their heads been turned?
Mourinho made no apologies about his desire to sign Dier in the summer & beyond.
There was talk of Dele being recruited to Real Madrid.
Initially, the speculation worried me because, being good friends, if one left it could unsettle the other.

Nevertheless, they haven't been the same since.
Coincidence? I don't know.

And the following is not a knee jerk reaction.
I'm actually open to offers to let them go.
If ManU is still willing to pay 60-70M euros for Dier & Real pay super silly money for Dele, I'd consider it.
Defensively, I feel Dier has been our weakest link. Been caught out too often. Going forward many of his passes have gone astray. Not as accurate as in the past.
Meanwhile, Dele no longer appears to have that spark in his play. Don't know what it is.
Furthermore, they seem quick to get agitated by other's play. Starting to see some cracks in our facade?

But the two of them would generate plenty of money for us to bring in &/or develop many other players that may "want to be here".

I have no evidence of them wanting to leave but my spidey senses are starting to tingle & it has nothing to do with the anticipation of the new urinals in NWHL.

Thoughts?

 

[skiathospurs]

The fact Dier covers CB,RB and DM makes him worth a lot more to us than mere performance in one position.He is young has leadership qualities inspite of his age,DM and CB are positions that benefit from experience,especially reading the game,fact he is moving between positions,even during matches is a hard task at his age.Also I am not really sure he has had his head turned,as long as he has Poch here to mentor him,i think he will improve and stay.

As for Dele,well even playing below himself as he is, he still scores and assists.But I feel with him something isnt there,he is either not enjoying it as much,distracted creating himself as a brand,maybe he believes the hype and lost focus?i dunno but he isnt the same so far.Knee jerking would I take a +£100m for him now,probably, he will go sometime i just have that feeling he will "Bale" on us,but truth is to be courted by a barca real,he has to play a lot better than these months.Sign Barkley,give him a reason to play better and refocus,give him time to learn he and dier are still so young we forget that cos they have played so many games already.

I dont want us to lose either this window,or expect to and hopefully a few results will see us get our mojo back and tails up,hopefully any cracks in the facade are just them not enjoying losing and working out to avoid losing and how to pull out a win.

 

[Style And Glory]

I didn't want to state too much in my OP as I hoped to stimulate some conversation.

I do agree with you that Dier has been played in a number of different positions & even within games.
While he excelled two seasons ago as a DM, I feel that Dier may have grown frustrated last season as he was mainly considered a utility player. Used when necessary.
Toby & Vert were ahead of him at CB while Wanyama's arrival bumped him from DM.

He may have felt he would get a whole lot more playing time in his preferred DM position at ManU.

Dele I believe is thinking more about himself & his stature as a brand of late.
All the talk about him switching agents could be a distraction as well.
Two of the biggest had been after him: Mendes & Raiola.

Both are very influential in a number of ways. The former tends to place a number of his clients within the same club thus giving them, & himself, far more leverage when new negotiations with the said club are needed. IE "if you don't give my client what he wants, I'm not only going to pull him out but I'll make it difficult for you with my other clients on your roster" etc. It's gotten to the point where some of these agents actually run the club. If Dele signs with either of these two it will be fireworks between them & Levy & it won't end well.

 

[wilson]

I think losing Dier would be detrimental to the squad. Not necessarily to the first XI per se, but the overall squad. He provides great cover in key areas. You'd literally have to buy another CB and CM if he went. He hasn't been great this season, no, but if I'm honest, he wouldn't actually make my first XI if everyone is fit.. He would still feature so much every season though due to rotation, injuries etc.

Dele is a trickier case imo... The issue is that due to injuries and our failure to strengthen in his position in the transfer windows, he will start regardless of his form. Same with Eriksen to a certain extent in that case. Who do we have that offer what they do and can push them? I'm hoping Lamela being back (and hopefully a new signing in Jan) will change that situation.

The other thing, which I touched on in another thread, is that I think teams have figured us out when we only play with 2 behind Kane. Nullify Dele and Eriksen by man-marking or giving them no time or space and force the ball to our CMs. That is easy defending and stops the flow to Kane. Literally our only attacking outlet when we have possession (not in a counter attacking moment) is the wing backs as our current CMs don't have the skillset to create chances. That's fine when Davies and Trippier play but not so much with Rose and Aurier...

Despite all that, Dele is still contributing, as is Eriksen. I had a look at the goalscorers and assisters for us in the prem this season. They are joint 2nd for both prem goals scored and assists. I think it also shows that, with the amount of possession that our CMs are forced to have, they need to be offering more going forward. Also, maybe we need to do more from corners, etc, when the CBs go up? Not sure on that one though. Between all our CMs and CBs, we have no prem goals and just 1 assist - Vertonghen.

No. of prem assists for us this season:
Trippier - 4
Davies - 3
Eriksen - 3
Alli - 3
Lamela - 1
Vertonghen - 1
Kane - 1

No. of prem goals for us this season:
Kane - 10
Eriksen - 3
Alli - 3
Davies - 2
Son - 2
Sissoko - 1

The point I'm trying to make, in a roundabout way, is that maybe we have an over reliance on Dele and Eriksen which in turn makes a sub-par performance more evident/frustrating because without them chipping in we struggle. People (including me) have to remind themselves of Dele's age as well. He's still only 21 (he's younger than Winks!!) yet is expected to do well for 90 mins every game. We need other options to chip in and take the pressure off of them.


So my verdict: Unless a stupid, stupid offer comes in for either of them or they want out themselves - keep both.

 

[Don Diaz]

Defensively, I feel Dier has been our weakest link. Been caught out too often. Going forward many of his passes have gone astray. Not as accurate as in the past.
Meanwhile, Dele no longer appears to have that spark in his play. Don't know what it is.

I don't agree, mostly with the Dier opinion. On several occasions this season he's been 'man of the match' for me, I'm not saying he's faultless, he's human but in the Palace game for example he tracked runs and attackers frequently making well timed tackles preventing goal scoring opportunities. he did exactly that in the first few minutes with Vardy on Tuesday night and there are other examples against WBA and Dortmund recently.

Defensively it seems to me our worst mistake is 'switching on' immediately at the start of games. Sanchez against WBA for example (and dele immediately prior).

With regard to Dele, he's more of an enigma and needs to be handled differently I think. He does seem to drift in and out of games and I think it's almost as if he's trying to be too clever. Problem is if you leave him out you lose a second striker and creator in the same person. He scored some important goals when Harry wasn't at the start of the season and has created as well as scored several since (Madrid, WBA, Dortmund). He scored over 20 last season including 2 to stop the Chelsea bandwagon.

I appreciate it's all subjective, but be careful what you wish for, because if you sell Dier to United and Dele to Spain, who are you going to buy of better quality, for the money generated? answers on a postcard......or even just on the back of the stamp!!

 

[wilson]

On a side note and off topic.. How good a return is that from Davies in the prem having only started 9 out of 14 games?! 2nd for assists (3) and 4th for goals (2). Take a bow! Danny who?

 

[BrooklynYid]

I think with Dele it's a bit tricky. If he's playing up top he really needs aerial service and he's sure not getting it. Out wide he's been figured out a bit. He's a great player but he is not fast. I think he's good in the 10 but he seems to be moved around a lot. I eventually see his permanent role being a bit deeper, kind of a Lampard-type player without being a cunt. As for his mentality, there does seem to be a difference. I'll touch on that below.

As for Dier, he's had some amazing performances and some duds. I will say, however, that constantly switching between CB and CM can't help his cause. The mindset is different. Your split-second decision making process is different. What you might do as a CM you wouldn't as a CB. This can't possibly make things easy on him. Also, having Wanyama and Dembele out, plus England duty, means he has played a lot. That is not easy for such a big, physical player. And also, like Dele, his mentality seems slightly off.

Regarding mentality, there seems to be an issue with the team as a whole. We just aren't seeing the spirit we had last year; at least not consistently. Not sure if it's because of Wembley or if the situations with Walker and Rose have affected the whole team, but there is something off. My hope is that when everyone is back and we start winning consistently that the spirit will return. It better or this could be a tough season. But I think we'll get things right. COYS!

 

[skiathospurs]

On a side note and off topic.. How good a return is that from Davies in the prem having only started 9 out of 14 games?! 2nd for assists (3) and 4th for goals (2). Take a bow! Danny who?

anything you wanna get off of your chest?we are here to help.....

 

[Flump]

The worst thing we could do is become sentimental about our players. If they're not doing it then drop them. If they're not committed then ship them out. The best side of the last 25 years moved big names out if they played up or weren't doing it and replaced them with equal or better. It didn't stop them being successful. All that really matters is the success of the club, not individual players.

 

[Don Diaz]

The worst thing we could do is become sentimental about our players. If they're not doing it then drop them. If they're not committed then ship them out. The best side of the last 25 years moved big names out if they played up or weren't doing it and replaced them with equal or better. It didn't stop them being successful. All that really matters is the success of the club, not individual players.

I didn't think Southampton were that great to be honest.....ha ha

 

[Flump]

I didn't think Southampton were that great to be honest.....ha ha

haha

 

[NiceOneCyril]

Dele might have lost a bit of his naughtiness, but I don’t think he’s been playing that badly TBH. Like Eriksen, he looks like magic if what he’s trying to do comes off, but when it doesn’t it’s hard to see what they had in mind. Leave those two alone, they’ll figure it out for themselves.

But Dier could do with a break to get his touch and passing back - that big frame will tire quickly. Just a game or two, then bring him back at either position. He’s better than most at both of them.

But maybe both Dele and Eric just need to kick someone really hard to get themselves back on top.

 

[Glenjamin]

with regards to Dier ultimately he is just tidy and plays a pretty uneventful game, which is good for a defensice player. His problem I feel came when he had to drop back into the 3 and played central. He is much better moved to the right as you can play the game slightly more like at CM. He got found out a few times against.......... (can't ducking remember) And then the following game Sanchez played central and he played to the right and I'd have given him man of the match.

Alli.... I'd have dropped him for Son by now, but would tough love work for him... I believe the Poch feels otherwise. He treats him in a similar regard to Lamela atvtye start. Trying to reignite the spark with constant starts.

I don't think it's all his fault though. Our formation is ultra defensive these days. Just 3 creative front men most games, which means you instantly get marked out, by a 4 or 5 man defense from the opposition.

Bottom line is I wouldn't sell either. No way. Dier plays anywhere across the defense and Alli is worth 20 goals + assists.

I think we need to go back to the false back 3 where Dier was sitting in front of a back 4 but pushing back when the opposition attack. This allows us an extra player up top.. The main man... Son!! That gives us either 4 vs 4 or if the opposition plays a back 3 with wing backs 4 vs 3 if the wingbacks sit high. Currently we can't score because we are becoming easy to defend against.

 

[skiathospurs]

with regards to Dier ultimately he is just tidy and plays a pretty uneventful game, which is good for a defensice player. His problem I feel came when he had to drop back into the 3 and played central. He is much better moved to the right as you can play the game slightly more like at CM. He got found out a few times against.......... (can't ducking remember) And then the following game Sanchez played central and he played to the right and I'd have given him man of the match.

Alli.... I'd have dropped him for Son by now, but would tough love work for him... I believe the Poch feels otherwise. He treats him in a similar regard to Lamela atvtye start. Trying to reignite the spark with constant starts.

I don't think it's all his fault though. Our formation is ultra defensive these days. Just 3 creative front men most games, which means you instantly get marked out, by a 4 or 5 man defense from the opposition.

Bottom line is I wouldn't sell either. No way. Dier plays anywhere across the defense and Alli is worth 20 goals + assists.

I think we need to go back to the false back 3 where Dier was sitting in front of a back 4 but pushing back when the opposition attack. This allows us an extra player up top.. The main man... Son!! That gives us either 4 vs 4 or if the opposition plays a back 3 with wing backs 4 vs 3 if the wingbacks sit high. Currently we can't score because we are becoming easy to defend against.

There has been a spell each of poch`s seasons where comments like "he is over training them we look flat,people have worked us out,so&such a player has lost it " Its is as you said "trying to ignite the spark" we just lost our mojo for 2 games is the reality.We lost a derby to a side with a 100% record at home,(also the same at united),west brom&leics were freakish,freakish goals and freakish misses,we didnt play badly or were shown up,less than a week after beating dortmund away suddenly the world has ended,the wheels have come off,we are doomed,poch out,dele is shite,toby wont re-sign,the ground wont be ready and probably the misses is letting their dog do a "walker" on her.

 

[Style And Glory]

If their preference is to be here over any other club, then we should keep them.
I trust MP to get them firing at their best once again.

But if they want to be elsewhere, let's cash in (& that doesn't necessarily mean in January).

 

[Style And Glory]

Geez Wilson, looks like he fondled your valve.

 

[wilson]

Geez Wilson, looks like he fondled your valve.

It’s all fun and games on a deserted island until you wake up to Tom Hanks’ thumb in ya nose.