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    Why we are suffering

    Discussion in 'Spurs Discussion' started by Basskadet, Feb 18, 2017.

    1. Basskadet

      Basskadet Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      Last season was great, despite how it ultimately finished. We played some wonderful football and we finished in our highest Premier League position ever. However, we somehow managed to negotiate virtually the entire season without picking up any really disruptive injuries. Yes, we did lose Jan for a bit, but big Kev stepped up admirably and filled in without really missing a step. I do think that that is FAR easier if it is the only real change and it becomes considerably harder once you start having to have another 1 or 2 players coming in and covering in other positions at the same time. In fact, whilst I believe that our decline at the end of the season was largely psychological, it also coincided with us losing part of our midfield spine in Dele Alli and Mousa Dembele both picking up suspensions. And us losing several big players at the same time is a trend which, unfortunately, has really dogged us throughout this season. We started off with Dembele continuing his suspension and Lloris getting injured, with Dele Alli in and out the team with niggles and Harry Kane then picking up a long-term injury. We then lost Lamela, who has still not returned, and now we've lost the whole left side of our defence, with both Vertonghen and Rose missing extended periods. I am sure there were more as well. In between we've had a period where everyone got back fit and, just to demonstrate the point, that coincided with our improved form.

      It goes to show that, scratch beneath our surface, and our squad is maybe not as strong as we hoped. Perhaps that is a little too simplistic however, as I think any team, even with a supposedly strong squad, will struggle when they repeatedly lose several of their big players at the same time. We do have some excellent squad players who, as Kevin Wimmer, Trippier, Davies and Sonny have all shown at various times, when they are separately called on to slot in and cover they can do an excellent job. The problem starts when they all have to come in together as that not only starts to weaken the overall team, but weaken it with players who've not even been playing regularly.

      I don't think referees have helped us much recently, I must say. I'm not blaming them for our stuttering form exactly, but in terms of protecting our players. We were on the wrong end of some really nasty challenges, both probably deserving of red cards,against both Sunderland and Middlesbrough and yet the refs did nothing. 1 of those tackles has directly led to Danny Rose's injury, which effectively amounts to Spurs being punished for being on the receiving end of a red card tackle.

      What I would add is that none of this excuses our frailties in front of goal. We went through January almost averaging 4 goals per game, but since going to Sunderland we've managed just 1 goal in all competitions and even that was a penalty. Even when we were scoring 4 per game we were almost entirely reliant on Kane and Alli, and that's unacceptable for me. As great as Wanyama and Dembele have been for us defensively this year, I feel they hugely handicap us in the attacking 3rd. Dier, for me, is still far better in midfield than he is in defence and, for the small amount we lose in defensive cover with him in midfield (which wasn't much to be fair) he did offer more going forwards. In fact, since moving Dier backwards he's stopped finding the net altogether, so we've lost that (albeit minor) goal threat in more ways than 1. I can't remember the last time our CBs scored anyway and, from all our defenders, only Danny has found the net this season (although Kyle has certainly provided plenty assists). We just seem to be incredibly lacking in front of goal and creatively also, relying almost entirely on our wing-backs for assists. Eriksen has improved since his early season troubles, but to be honest his good form feels like more of a 'blip' than his bad form. I do think we miss Lamela. For all his frustrating play, he does have a wonderful habit of creating chances, and whilst he doesn't score lots, he's better in front of goal than many of our current midfield. He's also a big game player and I just hope he can get back and playing at his best soon.

      Basically, some of our issues have been slightly self-inflicted, particularly in front of goal, but mostly we are suffering from constant squad disruption this season. However, as with earlier in the season when we lost a bunch of players, if we can just hang in there through this period until we get Jan and Danny and Erik back, we will hopefully pick our form up again at just the right time and, where we fell away in our last few games last season, maybe this time around we can come good instead.

      I'm sure some might think me being much too forgiving by referring to our injuries over our recent poor performances, and I can't really excuse how bad we were against Liverpool and Gent, but losing the whole left side of our defence, particularly when that left side has been so brilliant for us this season, is a huge problem amd, whilst we all hoped that we had players to come inand do the job like before, I think we need to recognise just how much more difficult that job is this time around.

      There, I feel much better having got that off my chest. Come on You Spurs!
       
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    2. Thfcire

      Thfcire Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      I do feel poch has lost all faith in wimmer which is a Shame but he was awful the last game he played and was hooked at ht.
       
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    3. Don Diaz

      Don Diaz Zero tolerance of Numpty's Founding Member

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      Great post as ever @Basskadet I don't agree with all of it, because whilst i agree injuries are certainly the biggest part of the problem, Eriksen has the second highest number (or did) in the league after De Bruyne..I think.

      I'm speculating and I think it's normal human frailty at the end of the day, but we've just hit a flat spot, as every team does. The obvious exception are Leicester last year and Chelsea this. In those cases neither have had European football or any (as you point out) serious long term injury. The other thing is age and experience, our lads have learnt from last year, as has Poch, but we're still not perfect...nor is Poch. We're getting better all the time and it's still a fine team to watch, this is a blip in my view, a mini perfect storm when several things have come to gether to hamper us.

      But remember this....we're having a little moan when we're 3rd in the most competitive league in the world. We've only lost 3 games....we're in Europe and the FA Cup, keep this in context because in all honesty there is practically nothing to moan about at all. These are very good times indeed.
       
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    4. Thfcire

      Thfcire Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      At this point can I just say I think leeks are the worst vegetable ever invented ...carry on
       
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    5. Basskadet

      Basskadet Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      @Don Diaz aside from no European football, both Leicester and Chelsea have managed to get through entire seasons (assuming Chelsea continue as they are) without any injuries.

      As for Eriksen, it's a fair point about his assists, although I'm guessing many came when he hit that good form. I'm not questioning his ability, only that we seem to see it in fits and bursts and, unlike most of our squad, he doesn't really have any excuses as he had a full summer to prepare for the season and he's been pretty much fit (as far as I recall). We need to get some consistency out of him as he is brilliant when at his best, but he just seems to disappear too often.

      I'm getting increasingly frustrated with Dembele though. He keeps putting in performances which, on the surface, are consistently good, but he has produced absolutely nothing in the final 3rd all season. He simply has to do better - even Wanyama has a couple goals! Dembele, for all his talents, has no goals and no assists in any competition this season, and for a midfielder that is just not acceptable. I thought he had started to get to grips with his play in front of goal last season, but he's worse than ever now!
       
    6. Don Diaz

      Don Diaz Zero tolerance of Numpty's Founding Member

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      Yes, agreed you make a lot of fair points.....and in a perfect world we wouldn't be suffering in the way you describe. However, in spite of the things you mention, Chelsea this and Leicester last year, we're still doing pretty bloody well.

      How Spursy of us!!!
       
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    7. boo

      boo Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      We don't have a decent enough squad to provide cover when players are injured, that is what has come out of the season so far, anyway.

      What's our best starting eleven?

      Lloris

      Walker Alderweireld Vertonghen Rose

      Dier Dembele

      Lamela Alli Eriksen

      Kane

      OK, you could argue that Wanyama has beaten Dier to that position, or not? Either way that's subjective.

      Vorm

      Trippier Cater-Vickers Wimmer Davies

      Wanyama Winks

      Son Sissoko N'Koudou

      Janssen

      Who out of those has covered themselves in glory?

      OK, narrow it down to the business end of the team because Wanyama, Winks, Carter-Vickers, Vorm have all come in and competed. I'd include Wimmer in that list too, except he looks like he has lost a lot of confidence in his own ability. Trippier, Davies, Sissoko, N'Koudou, Janssen, Son?

      OK, Trippier and Davies are more than acceptable covering for two of the best full backs we've ever had at the same time at the club.

      OK, Son has been doing a decent enough job when called upon. In fact, he is up there with our top goalscorers for the season so that's not bad eh?

      OK, Sissoko, Janssen and N'Koudou. I've got nothing for them. Janssen tries, N'Koudou runs fast and Sissoko is probably the most awkward looking footballer on the planet. That's 75% of our summer transfer business right there and a good £50M in funds.

      OK, Janssen is still only 22, in a new league and you could argue he is still getting used to life in the country. All things we've heard before and will no doubt hear again. I don't want to hear that stuff! I want to hear "well played Janssen". It's just excuses at the end of the day.

      OK, N'Koudou is still only 22, in a new league and you could argue he is still getting used to life in the country. All things we've heard before and will no doubt hear again. I don't want to hear that stuff! I want to hear "well played N'Kodou". It's just excuses at the end of the day.

      OK, Sissoko is an anomaly. The guy is just not the type of player any Tottenham side should be accommodating.

      Now, the issue with all of the above is probably; why weren't these opinions being voiced during the unbeaten streak?
       
    8. skiathospurs

      skiathospurs Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      I have been thinking for awhile to do a thread called "the urgency of now".

      Think this thread kind of covers part of it,we are suffering from expectation as fans and as a team,its a build up of self imposed pressure we just dont know how to handle as tottenham.Its built up to this for a decade,not Jol,Ramos,Redknapp,AVB had to deal with fans,pundits every so&so putting the pressure on to win something,to do something.Its all fallen on Poch`s and this teams shoulders,why is that?Its like a timer has gone off,and despite being in our best period since the 80s the bile,hate,criticism,expectation,wanting about stuff we havent achieved in 30 years has built up to this point.
      Maybe its because we look likely?and believe this group is better,better than Harry`s team?or AVB with Bale a true world superstar?
      Today 3rd is deemed failure,having a good chance of being in qtr finals of the cup and a slight 1st leg away disadvantage in europe,people are losing their shit,because they want more.There wasnt a clamour for more in this way from previous managers,but here we are navel gazing when we should be delighted with progress so far.Nowt wrong with wanting the next step up to achieving,but a balance of support and encouragement is also needed to get there,its not as simple as slag the club,put pressure on, this is the way to motivate to success,surely??
      Fair enough question Pochettino,but if you dont think he can do it,say what the answer is,I havent seen anyone,on any forum,social media say lets change and appoint manager X to get to the next step.The underlying tone of ATM we are failing is knee jerk,how about we actually fail before jumping ship.Even Conte,Pep,Jose,wenger,klopp have had spells of poor results,thats all it is,a spell of poor results.This week we win 3 games,progress in 2 cups,another home league win,all this disappears until next time.

      Simply I feel things arent so bad,could be better,they could always be better,but we are hardly in a bad place,a bit more support as the team and manager learn how to cope with expectation wouldnt go amiss.To sum up,I just feel we are trying too hard in a soldado type way,we want it too much snatching at things,over thinking it.Just get back to playing and enjoying our game,forget the expectation thats weighing us down this period.
       
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    9. Dorset

      Dorset The Voice Of Reason Founding Member

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      Dump the expectations and just enjoy the next game. Today I am really looking forward to our game at Fulham, its the FA Cup, I love the FA Cup and I don't give a fuck how we played last week, last month or last season, it's football, unpredicatble and magical. As @skiathospurs said if we have a good run for a few games then everything changes. It must be very dismal being a Spurs fan and having the whole season ruined because the title challenge has slipped away, fark that for a game of soldiers.

      I know it is considered a terrible crime in some places to mention 1977/78 and how we have for the majority of the Premier League era been a a mid table club but we have remained Yids through all that and NOW is a much better time, but I'll do it anyway. Of course we could go back a bot further in time and say now is crap compared to 61/62, but that was 2 years before my first visit to the Lane and my brainwashing by Mr Greaves and Mr McKay into becoming a Yid.

      Expectations are like arseholes .... err, maybe not, but fuck 'em anyway.
       
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    10. Don Diaz

      Don Diaz Zero tolerance of Numpty's Founding Member

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      Boo are you on a bit of a downer mate? There's very little to worry about if you take a step back and look at the big picture....I mean we ended Chelsea's run, no-one else has got near them, we're up to second/third after a series of serious injuries this year to key players. We've had a couple of flat spots - second one finished today! We've really only under performed in Europe and probably over performed in the League.

      I take your point that Sissoko and Janssen have been disappointing and I don't get this obsession for a pacy left winger...but give it a bit of time, we couldn't afford Martial and Ibrahimovich....and actually we're getting there, without them.

      It's all good mate, I reckon we'll be just fine. Good to see Vertonghen back today as well. A month earlier than expected.
       
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    11. Basskadet

      Basskadet Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      Well, just as I posted this thread last night how great was it to see both Jan and Kieran back and looking so fresh. I can't help feel Kyle might've needed a bit of respite recently and maybe the return of Tripps will give him just that. Neither Trippier or Vertonghen looked like they had been missing at all!
       
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    12. Yid

      Yid Well-Known Member Founding Member

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      I think the last 4/5 years the "I want it now" culture of socially deficient kids have grown up and got jobs and started following football teams.

      These kids weaned on a mostly unmoderated Internet say what they want to who they want without any concern for a possible consequence. There is not filter to rationalise what they type or say In a lot of cases. They did not feel the rough knuckles of a burly man when they spoke out of line as they were sat behind a screen giving it large and think the can now do the same and expect the same in real world situations.

      I sound like an old cunt but the youth of today are mannerless oiks who can barely maintain eyecontact let alone develop relationships or empathetic rounded opinions.

      Little cunts.

      The internet on the whole is great but the protection it a ford's these keyboard warrior cunts drives me mad.
       
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