Winter is coming.....for the midfield

[skiathospurs]

Ok Jose,new broom and all that,so its time to decide to clear the decks,we have far far too many midfielders or samey midfielders,we havent done pacey wingers since Lennon,we like a nice pirouetting midfielder who holds the ball for 2 secs too long and sideways,backwards passers who have instilled in them keeping the ball is everything,above creativity even.
Dont think we have too many midfielders? well lets just forget we have several out on loan including £10m buy Jack Clarke,luke amos at qpr,jack roles at cambridge,george marsh at Orient and georgiou at ipswich,as well as the U23s including Oakley-booth.But forget them,so midfield normally 3,4 or 5 players in there,lets be generous and say 5 in midfield,so 5 of this lot can play and 2 on the bench,and then 2 more for rotation (cover) or to sit on the bench and wait to improve or a chance to impress.So we want 9 midfielders.Still with me???9 is the magic number,i have been more than lenient Jose,I have ignored the kids coming through because you do too,I have ignored the lads out on loan because lets face it when at chelsea if you could remember all of their names you`d be a genius and they never came back.Also I have overlooked that sometimes 5 at the back means 2 fullbacks playing more as midfielders and that KWP,Foyth,Rose could step in as wide or DM. How many do we need then,yes its fucking 9,no more no less,no we cant have 15 and hide 6 of them at a belgium league 2 club,this isnt fucking chelsea Jose......no not 10 just incase his hamster dies,his hair and mascara wont do,cant find the black wooly gloves or dont feel good....

Because he is a big fan I have given them my ratings through the power of emoji`s

Winks
Lamela
wanyama
Dier
sessegnon
sissoko
Ndombele
Lo Celso
Moura
skipp
Dele
Eriksen
Son


Lots of samey type players in there,not many speedsters,not many pick a pass and unlock things but a lot of ball carrying tidy keep it types IMO..Before we even think about signings 4 of that lot aint gonna feature much or at all even in the squad.Harsh,but some have got to get in the bin.

 

[Yid]

Son should be considered a forward as well as Moura IMO

 

[skiathospurs]

Son should be considered a forward as well as Moura IMO

Aha,but then you dont get 5 in midfield!!Son more so than Lucas,but often they (have) function as wider further forward midfielders,auxillary strikers perhaps?unless Kane is out.It could be said Dier is a CB,Sessegnon is a LB,we still have too many samey midfielders IMO though.I totally get your point and if its Son,Kane,Moura as more of a 4-3-3 then its still 3 out of the samey guys I am aiming at.

Example west ham today,we`ll put Son and Kane upfront in a 4-4-2.
Whats the midfield?
For me today (only);
Dier,Ndombele,Dele,Lo celso bench Moura,sessegnon,winks and sissoko (who I may well have started for Lo Celso and be rather functional 1st game in).

If I am trading players out,wanyama,sissoko,eriksen,lamela.If I am also buying upgrades if its wide players maybe moura goes and if a CM perhaps winks too,skipp stays a year or two to see whats what.

This all before Jose does his mentalist jedi mind tricks and perhaps sissoko wont shit himself anymore when he sees the goalposts,lamela will use his right foot for more than standing on,Eriksen will rejoin and get corners beyond the 1st man,wanyama...nah I got nothing there,winks may be as adventurous as we need etc.We still havent seen lo celso or sessegnon,I mean it could all come together and we could spend on what we really need,defence,or the next step type quality,fuck aiming for grealish,maddison we need a top of his game ginola,gazza,VDV come in and destroy the PL and pay accordingly,its why some I have mentioned I would sell.
And what if one of Ndombele,sissoko,dier cant be Jose`s essien,makelele,matic,kante killer in midfield?

The not defending well,not creating is all in the midfield,we have a ton of players there not doing it..

 

[Yid]

Aha,but then you dont get 5 in midfield!!Son more so than Lucas,but often they (have) function as wider further forward midfielders,auxillary strikers perhaps?unless Kane is out.It could be said Dier is a CB,Sessegnon is a LB,we still have too many samey midfielders IMO though.I totally get your point and if its Son,Kane,Moura as more of a 4-3-3 then its still 3 out of the samey guys I am aiming at.

Example west ham today,we`ll put Son and Kane upfront in a 4-4-2.
Whats the midfield?
For me today (only);
Dier,Ndombele,Dele,Lo celso bench Moura,sessegnon,winks and sissoko (who I may well have started for Lo Celso and be rather functional 1st game in).

If I am trading players out,wanyama,sissoko,eriksen,lamela.If I am also buying upgrades if its wide players maybe moura goes and if a CM perhaps winks too,skipp stays a year or two to see whats what.

This all before Jose does his mentalist jedi mind tricks and perhaps sissoko wont shit himself anymore when he sees the goalposts,lamela will use his right foot for more than standing on,Eriksen will rejoin and get corners beyond the 1st man,wanyama...nah I got nothing there,winks may be as adventurous as we need etc.We still havent seen lo celso or sessegnon,I mean it could all come together and we could spend on what we really need,defence,or the next step type quality,fuck aiming for grealish,maddison we need a top of his game ginola,gazza,VDV come in and destroy the PL and pay accordingly,its why some I have mentioned I would sell.
And what if one of Ndombele,sissoko,dier cant be Jose`s essien,makelele,matic,kante killer in midfield?

The not defending well,not creating is all in the midfield,we have a ton of players there not doing it..

Difficult to disagree with everything there..... but Sisoko only goes when we have a better version if him..... and then absolutely last out of that lot.

 

[Dorset]

Ok Jose,new broom and all that,so its time to decide to clear the decks,we have far far too many midfielders or samey midfielders,we havent done pacey wingers since Lennon,we like a nice pirouetting midfielder who holds the ball for 2 secs too long and sideways,backwards passers who have instilled in them keeping the ball is everything,above creativity even.
Dont think we have too many midfielders? well lets just forget we have several out on loan including £10m buy Jack Clarke,luke amos at qpr,jack roles at cambridge,george marsh at Orient and georgiou at ipswich,as well as the U23s including Oakley-booth.But forget them,so midfield normally 3,4 or 5 players in there,lets be generous and say 5 in midfield,so 5 of this lot can play and 2 on the bench,and then 2 more for rotation (cover) or to sit on the bench and wait to improve or a chance to impress.So we want 9 midfielders.Still with me???9 is the magic number,i have been more than lenient Jose,I have ignored the kids coming through because you do too,I have ignored the lads out on loan because lets face it when at chelsea if you could remember all of their names you`d be a genius and they never came back.Also I have overlooked that sometimes 5 at the back means 2 fullbacks playing more as midfielders and that KWP,Foyth,Rose could step in as wide or DM. How many do we need then,yes its fucking 9,no more no less,no we cant have 15 and hide 6 of them at a belgium league 2 club,this isnt fucking chelsea Jose......no not 10 just incase his hamster dies,his hair and mascara wont do,cant find the black wooly gloves or dont feel good....

Because he is a big fan I have given them my ratings through the power of emoji`s

Winks
Lamela
wanyama
Dier
sessegnon
sissoko
Ndombele
Lo Celso
Moura
skipp
Dele
Eriksen
Son


Lots of samey type players in there,not many speedsters,not many pick a pass and unlock things but a lot of ball carrying tidy keep it types IMO..Before we even think about signings 4 of that lot aint gonna feature much or at all even in the squad.Harsh,but some have got to get in the bin.

I will reply in words - cunt!

 

[Liam]

You're spot on with what you say Col, but a new manager and new idea's, irrelevant of what we think of his past and this will be a different bunch of players. Some will suit Jose and some won't it cones down character as well as ability because we only see them on the pitch but they spend so much time together.

I said it to to other pals, but this team really doesn't need much to be top quality. if he can persuade Toby to stay it would make things quite a bit easier TBH. All he has to do us get the best out of what we've got and sign well over two or three transfer windows and we'll be albe to complete at the top table.

As for the midfield......

There's a lot of players who have done well at times and aren't bad players, but I think we're at a stage, as a club, where it's time to be ruthless and create a team that can win things for half a decade. So the midfield is,pretty much up for grabs withing the squad and I expect there will be anitber signing there if one of N'Domblele, or Lo Celso don't cut the mustard.

 

[skiathospurs]

There's a lot of players who have done well at times and aren't bad players, but I think we're at a stage, as a club, where it's time to be ruthless and create a team that can win things for half a decade. So the midfield is,pretty much up for grabs withing the squad and I expect there will be anitber signing there if one of N'Domblele, or Lo Celso don't cut the mustard.

yes!! time to improve here&now,not so much resale potential for the future,we dont need a grealish we need a dybala or top straight in make the squad and team instantly better player.

From today I would say we learnt Eriksen really is done,cant even put a shift in for 15mins winks was tidy,dier sloppy in possesion but decent protecting the back 4 especially aerially.We can play moura and son same time,Dele can be the #10 in place of eriksen.Now lets have a gander at lo celso,sessegnon and Ndombele.My minds made up get rid of wanyama and eriksen,dont care if they play for the ladies team.
Seeing "shithouse" Dele back is cause for great relief.

 

[Liam]

yes!! time to improve here&now,not so much resale potential for the future,we dont need a grealish we need a dybala or top straight in make the squad and team instantly better player.

From today I would say we learnt Eriksen really is done,cant even put a shift in for 15mins winks was tidy,dier sloppy in possesion but decent protecting the back 4 especially aerially.We can play moura and son same time,Dele can be the #10 in place of eriksen.Now lets have a gander at lo celso,sessegnon and Ndombele.My minds made up get rid of wanyama and eriksen,dont care if they play for the ladies team.
Seeing "shithouse" Dele back is cause for great relief.

Yeah I think Eriksen and Spurs are done tbh, but I do think Toby staying isn't out of the question as he fancies a new challenge and wantd to go to United when Jose was there. Going back to the midfield though think Eriksen is a goner, and all of Dier, Winks, N'dombele, Sissoko have a lot to prove. I think N'dombele is gonna be class but that's just my opinion of the lad. All the others are good players in there own very unique way but also all have their limitations too so we'll see.

I wouldn't be surprised if in eighteen months time we have made two other good signings there, but if Dier, Alli, Lo Celso, N'Domblele and Winks all perform for Jose he won't need loads in that area.

 

[skiathospurs]

This is a typical Mourinho set up,4-2-3-1

Postionally this is as good as it gets for 2 days to set up,we have 4 against 1 at the back,protected by 2 two just infront and somehow west ham allowed us to be 4 vs 4 with son,dele,moura just behind Kane.I guess teams will now move 3 midfielders deeper to combat this?but our top 4 are quality and you would expect them still to cause problems even vs 7 goalside.Strong defensively and a threat going forward.Those top 3 midfielders as cover we have sessegnon,lo celso,lamela,the money from eriksen!!so you could argue we could be short there if one or kane gets crooked.But the 2 holding is where we have dier,winks,sissoko,wanyama,ndombele,skipp something will have to give there.Possibly ndombele can play further forward,but this is where 6 into 2 doesnt go.

 

[Liam]

This is a typical Mourinho set up,4-2-3-1

View attachment 1062

Postionally this is as good as it gets for 2 days to set up,we have 4 against 1 at the back,protected by 2 two just infront and somehow west ham allowed us to be 4 vs 4 with son,dele,moura just behind Kane.I guess teams will now move 3 midfielders deeper to combat this?but our top 4 are quality and you would expect them still to cause problems even vs 7 goalside.Strong defensively and a threat going forward.Those top 3 midfielders as cover we have sessegnon,lo celso,lamela,the money from eriksen!!so you could argue we could be short there if one or kane gets crooked.But the 2 holding is where we have dier,winks,sissoko,wanyama,ndombele,skipp something will have to give there.Possibly ndombele can play further forward,but this is where 6 into 2 doesnt go.

Think Skipp is still some way off the first team, and Wanyama is half the player he used to be tbh so leaves Dier, Winks, Sissoko and N'Dombele. I think we're pretty good with those 4, it can be improved but probably not the most important area right now. Get a LB, RB, sort Toby out, then get good quality to replace Jan and Eriksen and we've a good squad once N'Dombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon all settle in.

 

[skiathospurs]

Think Skipp is still some way off the first team, and Wanyama is half the player he used to be tbh so leaves Dier, Winks, Sissoko and N'Dombele. I think we're pretty good with those 4, it can be improved but probably not the most important area right now. Get a LB, RB, sort Toby out, then get good quality to replace Jan and Eriksen and we've a good squad once N'Dombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon all settle in.

Lamela??I agree skipp is a future player,for me will be better than winks,nastier,more aggresive tackler but plenty of time for him to improve or not.I think Dier is key,still clearly rusty but offers the better screen for the back 4,better aerially than any of the others (a plus on set pieces),has a better pinged long ball than the others if we keep son&moura up front&wide,can he stop the sloppyness??Ndombele still hard to judge,we`ve seen him for what a couple of hours worth,but scores,is strong in possession,forward thinking in his play,if he is more DM can he hold position?that is what dier&winks give you.Sissoko I fear for,he has been good last season and this,but taking off the rose tinted glasses he has stood out because the others have been so poor.His shooting is awful,his passing when it comes to assisting is the same,he just has attacking brain farts.Cant fault his effort, and play breaking things down,but quite weak aerially vs Dier.
For me wanyama is gone,been out too long,is of an age,eriksen has to be sold january,he is just not coming back for us.I would wager he has given the ball away more times this season than the rest of his spurs career combined and just looks so not bothered from the player who every game ran more km than anyone else.Sessegnon maybe could be a Son type player going forward (on the pitch not in time),he plays too advanced to be a mourinho FB,Lo Celso,havent got a clue if he`s good or not not played enough and anyone can look awesome on youtube.Feeling is he is more of a Lamela type player?So if Dele is our #10 who covers him?if eriksen is gone.New player?ndombele/lo celso,lamela?I guess for sure if we sell eriksen we can sign someone,that bruno fernandes from reports?.

Olympiacos will give more of a clue when we see if he tries some of the unused players or sticks with what works and he liked on first impression

 

[skiathospurs]

And the elephant in the room......Bale

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Came in and immediately dropped Sissoko for Dier.

There is quite literally nothing, except shooting from distance that Dier does better than Sissoko.

 

[Glenjamin]

Came in and immediately dropped Sissoko for Dier.

There is quite literally nothing, except shooting from distance that Dier does better than Sissoko.

I like sissoko, but what u say isn't entirely true. Dier is far superior in the air and he will do exactly what Mourinho wants and shield the back 4 dropp8ng in to almost make 5 at the back while under pressure. Sissoko is an engine but he likes to stray around the pitch.

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the coming months, but Mourinho tried to buy Dier a few times so he must like something about him, however Sissoko and Ndombele can easily push for the spot.

 

[skiathospurs]

I like sissoko, but what u say isn't entirely true. Dier is far superior in the air and he will do exactly what Mourinho wants and shield the back 4 dropp8ng in to almost make 5 at the back while under pressure. Sissoko is an engine but he likes to stray around the pitch.

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the coming months, but Mourinho tried to buy Dier a few times so he must like something about him, however Sissoko and Ndombele can easily push for the spot.

Yeah its the discipline of the position that gives Dier the nod over sissoko for me.Ndombele not sure where he fits best (cos havent seen enough of him)is he a further forward or back midfielder?he`s kind of half and half from what we have seen (I like what I have seen) but in this type of unfluid system mourinho plays,does he do box to box jack of all trades types?.I mean if its dele as #10 with son&moura as preferred,where will he fit in.

 

[skiathospurs]

comments after the game to BBC radio 5 commentator John Murray
Why Jose didn’t start Sissoko: “What made me [start Winks & Dier] was the positional play of the 4 attacking players. I needed 1 midfielder that was more positional and I needed 1 midfielder that was more a passer. Moussa, he is a good player, but he is different than my needs.”

I think he was talking purely about the west ham game,sissoko is a ball carrier,clearly the order was dont fuck around at the back,we played quite long at times.

 

[Glenjamin]

Yeah its the discipline of the position that gives Dier the nod over sissoko for me.Ndombele not sure where he fits best (cos havent seen enough of him)is he a further forward or back midfielder?he`s kind of half and half from what we have seen (I like what I have seen) but in this type of unfluid system mourinho plays,does he do box to box jack of all trades types?.I mean if its dele as #10 with son&moura as preferred,where will he fit in.

If we are to stick to a similar system then really Ndombele is fighting it out with Winks in my opinion.

The Essien of a Mourinho team if you will.

 

[Yid]

where will he fit in.

He doesnt unless he gets way way more mobile and hits the form we brought him for becuse he is a workhorse and not much else.

Dier also needs more mobility to fulfill the role "our cunt" wants him to play but seems best of the bunch at present.

Sissoko lucks out with not as much discepline or ability....

Fat Moose could realistically do every job right across the middle of the pitch.... his ability is seriously top notch... his fitness is fucking woeful. The more I watch him he does do "real Dembele" things...

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I like sissoko, but what u say isn't entirely true. Dier is far superior in the air and he will do exactly what Mourinho wants and shield the back 4 dropp8ng in to almost make 5 at the back while under pressure. Sissoko is an engine but he likes to stray around the pitch.

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the coming months, but Mourinho tried to buy Dier a few times so he must like something about him, however Sissoko and Ndombele can easily push for the spot.

Might have agree to disagree on this one.

For mine, there isn’t much that distinguishes Dier from a statue. He might be decent in the air but the concrete boots he wears make it very easy to bypass him in midfield.

Sissoko might not have the defensive mindset but fuck me, he can cover more territory in 10 minutes than Dier can cover in a full 90. Sissoko has used his immense engine to get back and cover our wingbacks time and time again over the past couple of seasons. That said, I can understand that he becomes surplus if Mourinho plays a back 4 and Aurier/Davies/Rose etc don’t bomb forward which is quite likely.

Either way though, a nimble footed midfielder wouldn’t look at Dier with any concern whatsoever.

 

[Chavhater01]

It's a hard one, coz it's hard to know what we can get in, in place of those that get cut.

For me, with my ruthless hat on and subject to getting a decent price for them, i'd cut Lamela (injured to often),Eriksen, Wanyama, Dier...Hmmm, i really don't rate him anymore, as @The Cryptkeeper says, he's so laboured and immobile of late, and his passing is so defensive, the amount of times he slows the play down is detrimental to getting through an opposition high press. He was fine against West Ham, well bordering on fine but they were absolute garbage, so he wasn't really put under too much pressure, there's also the utility role he offers, so i can understand the need to keep him and given his recent health issues, a run in the 1st team will go a long way to determining whether he regain the form he showed a few years ago, happy to wait and see on that one.

My real controversial shout is Moura, he still plays like a really talented but at times incredibly raw 19 year old, his touch can be awful and has this tendency to just run straight into defenders, bit like a Lennon or Jose Domingues (the king of speed merchants who would just run and run until a defender got in the way or he just ran it out of play!!). He can also be unstoppable at times but you just never quite know what you're gonna get from him, and given he's 28, not sure he's gonna be any different other than inconsistent. All really depends on how these boys flourish or flounder under Mourinho.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

It's a hard one, coz it's hard to know what we can get in, in place of those that get cut.

For me, with my ruthless hat on and subject to getting a decent price for them, i'd cut Lamela (injured to often),Eriksen, Wanyama, Dier...Hmmm, i really don't rate him anymore, as @The Cryptkeeper says, he's so laboured and immobile of late, and his passing is so defensive, the amount of times he slows the play down is detrimental to getting through an opposition high press. He was fine against West Ham, well bordering on fine but they were absolute garbage, so he wasn't really put under too much pressure, there's also the utility role he offers, so i can understand the need to keep him and given his recent health issues, a run in the 1st team will go a long way to determining whether he regain the form he showed a few years ago, happy to wait and see on that one.

My real controversial shout is Moura, he still plays like a really talented but at times incredibly raw 19 year old, his touch can be awful and has this tendency to just run straight into defenders, bit like a Lennon or Jose Domingues (the king of speed merchants who would just run and run until a defender got in the way or he just ran it out of play!!). He can also be unstoppable at times but you just never quite know what you're gonna get from him, and given he's 28, not sure he's gonna be any different other than inconsistent. All really depends on how these boys flourish or flounder under Mourinho.

Yes, Moura is interesting. Very Aaron Lennon'sh as you say. Doesn't get his head up and find a teammate as often as he should for the space he creates. Can win you a game though, as per Ajax last season...very difficult player to get a read on. I didn't realise he was 28 already. That is a concern in itself and he isn't half the player Son is so will always be fighting for a spot in the starting line up.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Lamela will always be a player who I think of with great fondness but a tinge of sadness. Could have been absolutely anything if he wasn't put together with crepe-paper and rubber bands.

 

[deejbah]

It's probably a bit early to predict what is going to happen with any certainty but I would guess at the least we will see Kane, Son and Alli play as many games as they can handle with Alderweireld also playing as often as possible. Maybe Dier will as well as he has a tactical understanding of the game that Mourinho can communicate to him in a way he can't to others. Then the rest of the team will get shaped around that, so we will see different combinations of fullbacks and midfields that negate opposition strengths and exploit weaknesses.

Anderson was really pushed back by the way we worked to put Aurier's starting position in possession further up the pitch and then Snodgrass ended up spending a lot of time trying to get in behind him because of the way we locked down the middle, which meant two of their more dangerous players were a lot less dangerous because they were doing things they're not the best at.

 

[skiathospurs]

It's probably a bit early to predict what is going to happen with any certainty but I would guess at the least we will see Kane, Son and Alli play as many games as they can handle with Alderweireld also playing as often as possible. Maybe Dier will as well as he has a tactical understanding of the game that Mourinho can communicate to him in a way he can't to others. Then the rest of the team will get shaped around that, so we will see different combinations of fullbacks and midfields that negate opposition strengths and exploit weaknesses.

Anderson was really pushed back by the way we worked to put Aurier's starting position in possession further up the pitch and then Snodgrass ended up spending a lot of time trying to get in behind him because of the way we locked down the middle, which meant two of their more dangerous players were a lot less dangerous because they were doing things they're not the best at.

I can definetely see sissoko playing on the right in a four midfield,against teams with threatening right attackers and a FB who pushes on like liverpool,city,he can cover the fullback and has the engine to exploit the space behind if the FB gets caught forward.TBH as you say its too early and i dont really know if jose has a preferred formation because he does set up individually for opponents.

 

[deejbah]

I can definetely see sissoko playing on the right in a four midfield,against teams with threatening right attackers and a FB who pushes on like liverpool,city,he can cover the fullback and has the engine to exploit the space behind if the FB gets caught forward.TBH as you say its too early and i dont really know if jose has a preferred formation because he does set up individually for opponents.

Yeah, I think we can safely say that he is more risk averse than many of the other 'big' managers, which leads him to being more pragmatic and more opponent focused than other 'big' managers (though I would say Klopp has become more pragmatic in the Premier League due to managing his squad and player fatigue his usual style kills many possession teams and works just fine against other mid-block, counter-press teams) so that you will probably see the same approach for a lot of games but it's hard to know for sure what that might be when we have some really good players who have only just joined the club and others who are injured or only just coming back from injury.

 

[deejbah]

This way we started today showed a very different approach to the game. It didn't really come off but we were definitely trying to press up high far more than we did against the Spam. There was a good discussion of Mourinho with Michael Cox and a couple of other people where they came to the conclusion that he was much more a pragmatist who adopted his tactics and strategies to his squads rather than being welded to defensive football for it's own sake.

 

[skiathospurs]

So we have son and moura,but lets say now they are strikers with kane out.That leaves us;
Dele,lamela,winks,skipp,Ndombele,fernades,bergwijn,sissoko,dier,lo celso and hanging on in there wanyama.
quite the collection we have amassed.