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Guns, Special Relationship, Rant.

Boone

Boone

Player in Training.
You're right of course, but don't even get me started on the various ways voters are being basically disenfranchised in this country. NC is basically the national model for this--there is literally no point in voting in congressional or assembly elections in more than a few of our districts because of how they've been drawn. The courts have intervened, but it's hard to call government in this state democratic.
This state is ridiculous... how the 12th district was drawn.....
 
Dorset

Dorset

The Voice Of Reason
Founding Member
Evert day that lunatic Trump gets worse, I saw his speech on TV this morning, totally insane rambling scripted by his bosses the NRA. Hardening schools, "the weapons would be concealed, concealed is good - not bad, they would have shot the hell out of him" - for fuck's sake you mental cunt, a teacher with a concealed weapon is going to kill a lunatic with an assault rifle? What sort of language is this from what used to be a respected position, the ex-leader of the free world? The real free world hates this sociopath, we have zero respect for him or his fucked up country.

Businesses are cutting their ties with the NRA, good. It's not enough, everybody needs to cut their ties with the USA until they join the civilised world.
 
Havocc

Havocc

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
So I have seen this video a few times and it is out of context. The gun she has is for competitive clay pigeon shooting. I believe the girl in the video is training to be an Olympic competitor. Also, these shotguns are available in the uk for the same sport. Now, if the video was a girl getting an assault rifle, then it would be in context.
 
J.spurs

J.spurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
So I have seen this video a few times and it is out of context. The gun she has is for competitive clay pigeon shooting. I believe the girl in the video is training to be an Olympic competitor. Also, these shotguns are available in the uk for the same sport. Now, if the video was a girl getting an assault rifle, then it would be in context.
I personally know people who have given their kids exactly this.
 
Dorset

Dorset

The Voice Of Reason
Founding Member
I personally know people who have given their kids exactly this.
That is beyond my understanding, totally. I know they are some fucked up people in the world, but kids with semi-automatics is the sort of thing you would expect in some war torn, tribal, lawless country. OK, I get it now.
 
Style And Glory

Style And Glory

Player in Training.
That is beyond my understanding, totally. I know they are some fucked up people in the world, but kids with semi-automatics is the sort of thing you would expect in some war torn, tribal, lawless country. OK, I get it now.
Or toothless, banjo picking, one strap overall, backwater hicks. Think Deliverance.

1519499122990.png
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
No, that's the thing, I'm talking relatively affluent middle-class (white) people, which is also the demographic from which these shooters are drawn. Crazy shit.
so we need a travel ban here on white middle class americans,heheh
if it had been an immigrant,non white I hate to think of the reaction,sadly for trump most of them are from his demographic but his narrative just doesnt give a damn.
 
BrooklynYid

BrooklynYid

Player in Training.
For those of you non Americans, the argument for guns, assault rifles specifically, is not for hunting purposes. The belief is that the Constitution grants individual citizens the right to be armed in the event they need to resist an oppressive government. In theory, there is some sense to this; the government draws its power from the people, not the other way around. The reality is that our electoral system and our media (whatever you think of it) provides quite enough protection against such a scenario. Even now, with Trump in office there will almost certainly be a correction come 2018 and 2020. This fear that our government will suddenly strip the rights of its citizens is a bit fantastical, as the center of power is so spread out it would take conspiracy of almost the entire government.

With that little tidbit out of the way, yeah, individual citizens really have no good argument to own what are basically machine puns (spare me the technicalities). No reason to not ban these things going forward. Taking them away from current owners is not something that could work, but let's make things a little brighter for the next generation. Just my two cents.
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
For those of you non Americans, the argument for guns, assault rifles specifically, is not for hunting purposes. The belief is that the Constitution grants individual citizens the right to be armed in the event they need to resist an oppressive government. In theory, there is some sense to this; the government draws its power from the people, not the other way around. The reality is that our electoral system and our media (whatever you think of it) provides quite enough protection against such a scenario. Even now, with Trump in office there will almost certainly be a correction come 2018 and 2020. This fear that our government will suddenly strip the rights of its citizens is a bit fantastical, as the center of power is so spread out it would take conspiracy of almost the entire government.

With that little tidbit out of the way, yeah, individual citizens really have no good argument to own what are basically machine puns (spare me the technicalities). No reason to not ban these things going forward. Taking them away from current owners is not something that could work, but let's make things a little brighter for the next generation. Just my two cents.
I understand that about keeping the government straight,but in these days of drones,aircraft carriers,tanks,satellite surveilance,stealth aircraft,nuclear missiles,a standing army of millions....... owning a few guns isnt really going to cut it.Its already lost if the state wants to get tyrannical on their arses and a 250 year old piece of paper doesnt make it anymore logical.Remember these geniuses back in the day also believed in owning people.

That was then and now is now,times have changed and just as armanents have changed so should laws,if america can bare arms why not iran,korea if you follow that argument to an illogical conclusion.End of the day it is your nation and laws,just seems to have got to such a bizarre crescendo the last decade that surely common sense will prevail,or just wait for a worse event to shift people to act?.I find the hypocrisy that the white house,trumps resort in florida,the GOP national congress all ban guns from their own territory but for the country its fair game.
 
Dorset

Dorset

The Voice Of Reason
Founding Member
I suppose we needn't worry about any further attacks as Trump has solved the problem. Just arm the teachers with concealed weapons, they have to be concealed, because that is good, not bad, then they will shoot the hell out of the bad guys. Lock down the schools and turn them into military compounds then no more kids will be killed - in the schools. Then they will just need 'good guys with guns' at sports stadiums, parks, theatres, shops, hospitals, swimming pools, youth clubs, beaches and the houses they live in - just the places where kids go, then the problem will be solved. I have watched the movies and I know that a good guy with a handgun always beats any number of bad guys with semi-automatic weapons.
 
Yid

Yid

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Sooooo I haven't waded in here yet.

But why can America have countless nukes, their military the biggest and most heavily armed in the world, their civilians more heavily armed than any across the globe but North Korea, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia and anyone else who dares to strive for parity gets sanctions, invaded and torn down until they are destroyed and are akin to a 3rd world cisspit only fit for dogs and cave dwellers.

Now back to the topic and guns for all. There is not much more to be said on this as anyone who has any sense of morality knows that there is absolutely no need for anyone to own a gun. There are exceptions to this for people who need to hunt... but let's face it all our food is farmed and we have absolutely no need to have a gun. None of us. Happy for armies to have them but I'd prefer unilateral disarmament so no more killing happened

I am going to America on holiday as a once in a lifetime for my kids but I will be honest I am fucking shitting myself. I have genuine fear of them becoming the victim of some other fuckpiece with an arsenal of military grade weapons who has lost their sense of morality and the general plot.

What America needs is to wake the fuck up. Realise that this is happening all over and that it needs to change. Stop being apathetic at the elections and vote for a movement that is comitted to genuine change. Their right to bear arms bullshit is no longer fit as others have said in this thread already. The ritual feeding of the liberty tree with the blood of tyrants has 100% never made any fucking sense.

The might of the many needs to be heard and not quietened or dumbed down by the ruling elite. Politics is their new right to bear arms. Have their will heard and answered by real people who are comitted to "make America great again". The normal people need to make it great by holding to account their country and its rulers and making them work for them not how it is now.

Now this could be said in almost every democracy and here in blighty we are only a version of free...! But it is a version where loonies with machine guns does not exist and and for that I am thankful.

People need to do the right thing in general and from there we all move on as a race.
 
J.spurs

J.spurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
For those of you non Americans, the argument for guns, assault rifles specifically, is not for hunting purposes. The belief is that the Constitution grants individual citizens the right to be armed in the event they need to resist an oppressive government. In theory, there is some sense to this; the government draws its power from the people, not the other way around. The reality is that our electoral system and our media (whatever you think of it) provides quite enough protection against such a scenario. Even now, with Trump in office there will almost certainly be a correction come 2018 and 2020. This fear that our government will suddenly strip the rights of its citizens is a bit fantastical, as the center of power is so spread out it would take conspiracy of almost the entire government.

With that little tidbit out of the way, yeah, individual citizens really have no good argument to own what are basically machine puns (spare me the technicalities). No reason to not ban these things going forward. Taking them away from current owners is not something that could work, but let's make things a little brighter for the next generation. Just my two cents.
But, that was not the purpose of the amendment as written, and it was really not interpreted that way in the mainstream until quite recently. The right to bear arms was an individual right tied to community obligation--i.e., serving in the militia. The reason it was seen as necessary was that state militia were better options than a standing professional army. They most certainly were not saying that people had the right to violently resist the new government. The whole point of the militia was to prevent violent uprisings of people like that, not "big government." As you suggest, it's a pretty silly argument to make today by people looking for a reason to carry machine guns into Walmart.
 
The Cryptkeeper

The Cryptkeeper

The Aussie Yid
For those of you non Americans, the argument for guns, assault rifles specifically, is not for hunting purposes. The belief is that the Constitution grants individual citizens the right to be armed in the event they need to resist an oppressive government. In theory, there is some sense to this; the government draws its power from the people, not the other way around. The reality is that our electoral system and our media (whatever you think of it) provides quite enough protection against such a scenario. Even now, with Trump in office there will almost certainly be a correction come 2018 and 2020. This fear that our government will suddenly strip the rights of its citizens is a bit fantastical, as the center of power is so spread out it would take conspiracy of almost the entire government.

With that little tidbit out of the way, yeah, individual citizens really have no good argument to own what are basically machine puns (spare me the technicalities). No reason to not ban these things going forward. Taking them away from current owners is not something that could work, but let's make things a little brighter for the next generation. Just my two cents.
I understand the difficulty here but why could this not work?

We had a gun buy back scheme here in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre with an amnesty period granted to those carrying illegal weapons. Yes, it was at significant financial cost to the taxpayer....but what value do we put on human life?

Perhaps this is an oversimplification of a possible solution and I get that the problems surrounding the ownership of guns in the USA have an increased complexity to them....but it seems to me that to simply say that something would not work is a little on the defeatist side. Surely you try anything and everything until the solution is found.
 
BrooklynYid

BrooklynYid

Player in Training.
I understand the difficulty here but why could this not work?

We had a gun buy back scheme here in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre with an amnesty period granted to those carrying illegal weapons. Yes, it was at significant financial cost to the taxpayer....but what value do we put on human life?

Perhaps this is an oversimplification of a possible solution and I get that the problems surrounding the ownership of guns in the USA have an increased complexity to them....but it seems to me that to simply say that something would not work is a little on the defeatist side. Surely you try anything and everything until the solution is found.

You make fair points, but it is a bit of a different situation here. Many people here have guns because they think the government will eventually try to take them away from them. Just look at one of the most popular NRA slogans. "I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." People take this quite literally. They will fight to the death before giving them up. Yeah, it sounds nuts but I can assure you it would not go peacefully. Would love to be wrong, but I don't think it would go down without a lot of bloodshed.
 
BrooklynYid

BrooklynYid

Player in Training.
But, that was not the purpose of the amendment as written, and it was really not interpreted that way in the mainstream until quite recently. The right to bear arms was an individual right tied to community obligation--i.e., serving in the militia. The reason it was seen as necessary was that state militia were better options than a standing professional army. They most certainly were not saying that people had the right to violently resist the new government. The whole point of the militia was to prevent violent uprisings of people like that, not "big government." As you suggest, it's a pretty silly argument to make today by people looking for a reason to carry machine guns into Walmart.
Oh, I don't disagree with you on how it was intended. I think you are spot on. The problem is more than half the country sees it as I described in my earlier post. It's meaning has been stretched beyond recognition, but that ship has unfortunately sailed.
 
Rev John Ripsher

Rev John Ripsher

Player in Training.
The Second Amendment as written...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
 
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Style And Glory

Style And Glory

Player in Training.
You make fair points, but it is a bit of a different situation here. Many people here have guns because they think the government will eventually try to take them away from them. Just look at one of the most popular NRA slogans. "I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." People take this quite literally. They will fight to the death before giving them up. Yeah, it sounds nuts but I can assure you it would not go peacefully. Would love to be wrong, but I don't think it would go down without a lot of bloodshed.
While my family & I were vacationing in Hawaii we ran into an american with numerous tattoos in a supermarket checkout.. One tattoo being a well known historical Greek quote which referenced weaponry. When I commented on it he basically quoted the above in bold. And he did so in a very unnerving, crazy-eyed way. Some of these characters are scary creatures.
 
Dorset

Dorset

The Voice Of Reason
Founding Member
You make fair points, but it is a bit of a different situation here. Many people here have guns because they think the government will eventually try to take them away from them. Just look at one of the most popular NRA slogans. "I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." People take this quite literally. They will fight to the death before giving them up. Yeah, it sounds nuts but I can assure you it would not go peacefully. Would love to be wrong, but I don't think it would go down without a lot of bloodshed.
I agree, the problem would not be solved by the government just banning these weapons, you would see Wacco style massacres going on every single day. It seems that many of these gun fanatics also believe that God gave them guns and he wants them to have the biggest, baddest gun possible. A nutcase with a gun is scary, a religious nutcase with a gun is even scarier. It is of course impossible for a rational, sane person to reconcile these 'God of the Gun' views with the message they pretend to follow in their fantasy religion, but like the small percentage of muslims who become terrorists they twist the words and only listen to the bits they want to hear. The ultimate, original Fake News.

If Sandy Hook did not change their minds, nothing will, the recent Florida shootings in some perverse way just seem to reinforce their beliefs that they are the 'good guys with guns' and they see all these massacres as justification, they need their AR15s because the bad guys have them. Sadly, I don't see a simple answer to the problem and I think a large, influential portion of the USA will continue living in the 18th century and we as a country, will continue to passively support this lunacy. by turning a blind eye.

The rise of facism and right wing hatred in the world is worrying, right wing loonies with guns is more worrying. We see those racist monsters marching in your country, waving swastikas and openly carrying their military grade weapons and your so-called President saying they are 'fine people' - truly unbelievable. We are sickened by the massacres, we cannot even start to understand why a country we used to see as a slightly wayward child who needed to go through adolescence before we saw you as a proper grownup turning into a irredeemable psychopath. There are are of course left wing loonies and they will start arming themselves using the same twisted logic of the right, they need their semi-automatics to protect themselves from the other side. The same mentally disturbed game is going on at a much higher level with your mad leader wanting more nukes than China and Russia, kicking the wasps nest that is North Korea instead of holding out a hand of friendship - yes, Kim Jong Un is almost as mental as Trump, but a bit of ego massaging and good trade deals would work much better than threatening to wipe his country off the map.

As you say, the medicine will be tough to take, but unless you hold your nose and swallow it the USA will become more isolated from the rest of the civilised world, you will become even more hated than you are now. Governments won't act but people will and eventually even the politicians will listen. The boycott movement is growing, it's just a tiny flea bite on the arse of a rogue elephant at the moment, but it will itch and grow into something that cannot be ignored.
 
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Dorset

Dorset

The Voice Of Reason
Founding Member
It seems Trump has gone even more mental - is that possible? One day after he seemed to be in favour of gun control and even suggested taking the semi-automatics away from the yeehaws and then sorting out the legalities later one of his advisers says he 'mispoke'. What is this new thing 'misspeaking' thing, we used to call it lying, it seems now that politicians on both sides of the pond uses it as an explanation fro talking bollocks or lying. The NRA are saying that they had a great meeting with the Chump and he does not want gun control.

Somebody posted yesterday that Trump's opinion is based on the last person he spoke to, that seems to be true. What a strange world we are living in - an obviously mentally ill nutcase running the most powerful country on the planet. The lunatics have really taken over the asylum.
 
Motspur Hotspur

Motspur Hotspur

Player in Training.
The Second Amendment as written...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
What about then simply moving the goal posts Tory style. Anyone who wants to own and gun has to do 2 years military service first. There would be a few at least that would be fuck it not worth it!
 
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