Manchester City (A) 17:30 Sat 16th December 2017

[Canadaspur]

Yeh, I wonder if the distance we are running (bearing in mind the size of Wembley to WHL) is having an effect, still, no excuse for not turning up. Onwards and upward eh.

The players in the top 3 divisions can easily manage 2 games a week, the training, diets, are all tailored for max effort, but the mental side, has been lacking in at least 5 players for weeks, Dier, Dele, Winks, Trippier, Rose, it's the difference between the top players, De Brune imposed his game on us with a combo of talent and a will to compete for 90, not 15.

 

[Motspur Hotspur]

A few things I have noticed over the past 5 weeks or so, for me, Winks is almost becoming a Ryan Mason retread, and today, if he is the midfield metronome, he needs to be making 40-50 moves to the ball over 90, in my opinion he is hiding for a portion of the game. He is also guilty of ball watching in defence, on a regular basis. Of course he's young, and our coaching staff are aware of these faults, but he needed to be yanked at 2-0, a player of similar age, Dele, is now failing to do the easy stuff, he has been awful at receiving the ball back to goal, anywhere centrally, he has to be coached to get wide, and show a ton more energy, as today his effort was mostly lacking. Eric Dier has been in a slump since the Man U game, and shows no signs of improving. I think we all like Trippier, but today he could have been subbed 1st half. Dembele can not show his strength alongside Winks, I feel the Harry Winks trial is over, time for him to be a back up, not a first choice.

That would be the Harry Winks that bossed it in the Bernabeu? Nah, not having that. He needs more time and to learn from mistakes made. He can't do it on his own when everyone else is struggling. For me, I don't understand why Moussa is played so deep when he's so strong holding the ball up, surely in a game where we are struggling we can push him on a bit and play more direct?

 

[Dorset]

Yeah that was a bit pony, but City are freaks and are duffing up everybody. But, I struggle to think of a player who deserves a special mention today, not a good special mention anyway. Hugo got right on my thrupnies, his kicking and distribution, which is total pony at the best of times was fucking bollocks today. OK, he is the best shot stopper in the league, but for fucks fucking sake - the captain? Nah not for me. Imagine Ledley if that sort of shit had been going on, or Daws? I think we are really missing Toby and we need someone to take control and tell Hugo and his merry men to stop fucking around and clear the fucking ball..

We can play that fuck awful pitter-patter bollocks in our own area against Stoke, but not against City. I think we lost the game before we came onto the field, they must have had their arses kicked at half time because there was an improvement at the beginning of the second half, it did not last.

Like @wilson said, I don't mind losing if we give 100% and put in a shift, but nobody seemed remotely fucked today, are they saving themselves for Juventus? Disappointing result, fucking annoying lack of effort.

 

[Canadaspur]

That would be the Harry Winks that bossed it in the Bernabeu? Nah, not having that. He needs more time and to learn from mistakes made. He can't do it on his own when everyone else is struggling. For me, I don't understand why Moussa is played so deep when he's so strong holding the ball up, surely in a game where we are struggling we can push him on a bit and play more direct?

An opinion, I saw the Madrid game, and as a collective, we did well, I do not like over hyping young players, so my opinion is, this Spurs team is being built to attack. Winks will soon be a bench player, once Victor W is fit, and Eric L also, even the loaned at Villa , Josh is in my opinion a better player in the last 3rd then Winks. He has had a decent run, but if Spurs are to be a top 4 team, then Winks must become a bit part player.

 

[J.spurs]

We are desperately missing Wanyama and Alderweireld. It was too easy for them to play through us, especially in the first half. That said, I'd rather see us at least try to get in and amongst them rather than sitting back like MU did (at home, no less) in getting the same result.

 

[J.spurs]

An opinion, I saw the Madrid game, and as a collective, we did well, I do not like over hyping young players, so my opinion is, this Spurs team is being built to attack. Winks will soon be a bench player, once Victor W is fit, and Eric L also, even the loaned at Villa , Josh is in my opinion a better player in the last 3rd then Winks. He has had a decent run, but if Spurs are to be a top 4 team, then Winks must become a bit part player.

Apples to oranges. Winks to Mason isn't an especially good comparison either.

Posh clearly sees him as an important player, though you're right that when Wanyama is healthy Winks won't be as regular a starter as he is now. Winks and Dembele was not the ideal midfield setup against Man City, but who would have been?

 

[Flump]

I'll tell you what, I'll not bother with MOTD this week.

 

[skiathospurs]

That would be the Harry Winks that bossed it in the Bernabeu? Nah, not having that. He needs more time and to learn from mistakes made. He can't do it on his own when everyone else is struggling. For me, I don't understand why Moussa is played so deep when he's so strong holding the ball up, surely in a game where we are struggling we can push him on a bit and play more direct?

The whole game all over the pitch we were isolated,kane&son upfront,eriksen,dele,mousa,winks.It was never easy to find a team mate,we couldnt play out,or ever in positions to pass fluently.They did a job on us.I dont think anyone one player would have changed that,they were all over us in every area,it was like playing 14 players,they had us covered in every area,playing out from defence,in midfield upfront always out numbered.

Were they that good?were we also poor?was it formation/tactics?.
As a biased fan i say bollocks it was half a billion of dirty oil money,a bent ref and the fact our players wont dive to win a penalty

It was a lesson,for levy,poch and the players,we can give up or aspire to be that good too.We cant just accept that they will be better for a generation,we now have to improve too,everyone has to adapt to this game style which is being imposed on them,or city will clean up for 5 years in a row here.

 

[skiathospurs]

An opinion, I saw the Madrid game, and as a collective, we did well, I do not like over hyping young players, so my opinion is, this Spurs team is being built to attack. Winks will soon be a bench player, once Victor W is fit, and Eric L also, even the loaned at Villa , Josh is in my opinion a better player in the last 3rd then Winks. He has had a decent run, but if Spurs are to be a top 4 team, then Winks must become a bit part player.

Or winks has to improve,because you have to hope both he and onomah can.We arent a club that will just go and replace,financially at this point unrealistic.Its still too early to bin him,he is just a pup experience wise,can he show the same desire to self improve like Kane?thats the key and time will tell.Easy to single the youngest out as poor,but eriksen,dembele,son,dele were equally poor yesterday,as a midfield unit it just didnt click,at all defensively or offensively.

 

[Canadaspur]

Or winks has to improve,because you have to hope both he and onomah can.We arent a club that will just go and replace,financially at this point unrealistic.Its still too early to bin him,he is just a pup experience wise,can he show the same desire to self improve like Kane?thats the key and time will tell.Easy to single the youngest out as poor,but eriksen,dembele,son,dele were equally poor yesterday,as a midfield unit it just didnt click,at all defensively or offensively.

Erikson was still covering the ground and asking for the ball, and really the front 2 or 3 were relying on a midfield base. Why not play Foyth in defence, or Davies as centre back? Releasing Dier into the mid next to Dembele, as it was 2 seasons prior? Because its not working with Winks.

 

[skiathospurs]

Erikson was still covering the ground and asking for the ball, and really the front 2 or 3 were relying on a midfield base. Why not play Foyth in defence, or Davies as centre back? Releasing Dier into the mid next to Dembele, as it was 2 seasons prior? Because its not working with Winks.

I dont disagree with if we had done something else or played different people,but yesterday dembele,rose,trippier,dier,son,dele all IMO had worse performances than winks and i cant say i thought eriksen was so much better.Its fine if you dont rate winks but harsh to single him out alone in this match,he actually had a 94% pass success in a game where most (actually all) of our more experienced had nothing like as much.Playing in a midfield of seasoned internationals I cant say he was the worst of our problems.

 

[Motspur Hotspur]

Apples to oranges. Winks to Mason isn't an especially good comparison either.

Posh clearly sees him as an important player, though you're right that when Wanyama is healthy Winks won't be as regular a starter as he is now. Winks and Dembele was not the ideal midfield setup against Man City, but who would have been?

I see Winks as more of a Paul Scholes type player and I think in time we'll see him move further forward allowing Eriksen some rest games. At the moment Winks isn't experienced enough to carry the team like that so we have to make do and Eriksen has to play more.

 

[Canadaspur]

I dont disagree with if we had done something else or played different people,but yesterday dembele,rose,trippier,dier,son,dele all IMO had worse performances than winks and i cant say i thought eriksen was so much better.Its fine if you dont rate winks but harsh to single him out alone in this match,he actually had a 94% pass success in a game where most (actually all) of our more experienced had nothing like as much.Playing in a midfield of seasoned internationals I cant say he was the worst of our problems.

Its an opinion, i am not singling him out to mock him. 94% pass rate, stats, do not the player make. I could play lime the proverbial wall and bounce the ball straight back to the guy who passed it to me over 10 ft, i am saying in my opinion he is not going to progress, some of you may recall Johnny Pratt, Phil Holder etc, or Mason, i do not see us progressing with Winks.

 

[skiathospurs]

Its an opinion, i am not singling him out to mock him. 94% pass rate, stats, do not the player make. I could play lime the proverbial wall and bounce the ball straight back to the guy who passed it to me over 10 ft, i am saying in my opinion he is not going to progress, some of you may recall Johnny Pratt, Phil Holder etc, or Mason, i do not see us progressing with Winks.

lol im not a stat man myself almost never .I am not convinced either way about harry,i dont want us to not give him time and also i dont want mark noble syndrome just cos he is one of our own.There are 2 or 3 others i d show the door before winks.

 

[Chavhater01]

Erikson was still covering the ground and asking for the ball, and really the front 2 or 3 were relying on a midfield base. Why not play Foyth in defence, or Davies as centre back? Releasing Dier into the mid next to Dembele, as it was 2 seasons prior? Because its not working with Winks.

Yeah I agree it didn’t work with Winks and we were in hindsight probably quite naive to setup the way we did, so very tough to single out Harry, as it didn’t really work out for anyone. City read it perfectly they waited for us to make mistakes, which we continually did by giving up possession time and time again in dangerous positions. They suffocate you and make it extremely difficult for teams to get the ball up field with any fluency.

We had an even share of possession which I didn’t think we’d have but i’d have thought the majority of that possession, was in our in own half with us continually passing it back or sideways. We probably should’ve as you said played Foyth and Davies making a back 3 or 5 with Trippier and Rose and Dier in the middle of the park, much like the Madrid performances and allowing City on to us but without Toby, Sanchez and our best defensive midfielder (Vic) that might’ve been a car crash as well but I think we all appreciate the intent with the set up, coz clearly Poch wanted to put pressure on them by closing them down further up the field but they’re just too good for that and we weren’t good enough individually or as a team to make that work.

Back to Winks, he’s shown enough quality as far as i’m concerned to suggest he could be a top midfielder. I hear what you’re saying and sometimes you worry that he could be a Mason or Carroll, more likened to Carroll, who I thought was gonna be a top player, He has more quality than Tom, he just has to keep working and in time we’ll see whether he’ll make it as a regular in our team. He’s been a standout in some massive games this season, so he’s got a lot about him. Sometimes games just pass you by that’s all.

 

[Don Diaz]

I'm not sure why there is so much focus on a still very young Winks. I thought Eriksen was very poor, disengaged, gave the ball away far too often and offered no help or protection to Trippier....and unfortunately Dembele was just as bad with an added lack of pace. Just a bad day at the office all round, against opposition that will kill you.

Unfortunately we were just out played everywhere, which is unusual for us, coupled with an apparent lack of belief and desire, equally surprising.

I don't know enough about footballers etc and maybe City are so good they just demoralise and tire you. Poch will deal with it. Need a better performance against Burnley.

 

[Canadaspur]

Yeah I agree it didn’t work with Winks and we were in hindsight probably quite naive to setup the way we did, so very tough to single out Harry, as it didn’t really work out for anyone. City read it perfectly they waited for us to make mistakes, which we continually did by giving up possession time and time again in dangerous positions. They suffocate you and make it extremely difficult for teams to get the ball up field with any fluency.

We had an even share of possession which I didn’t think we’d have but i’d have thought the majority of that possession, was in our in own half with us continually passing it back or sideways. We probably should’ve as you said played Foyth and Davies making a back 3 or 5 with Trippier and Rose and Dier in the middle of the park, much like the Madrid performances and allowing City on to us but without Toby, Sanchez and our best defensive midfielder (Vic) that might’ve been a car crash as well but I think we all appreciate the intent with the set up, coz clearly Poch wanted to put pressure on them by closing them down further up the field but they’re just too good for that and we weren’t good enough individually or as a team to make that work.

Back to Winks, he’s shown enough quality as far as i’m concerned to suggest he could be a top midfielder. I hear what you’re saying and sometimes you worry that he could be a Mason or Carroll, more likened to Carroll, who I thought was gonna be a top player, He has more quality than Tom, he just has to keep working and in time we’ll see whether he’ll make it as a regular in our team. He’s been a standout in some massive games this season, so he’s got a lot about him. Sometimes games just pass you by that’s all.

Firstly, i am a massive Spurs fan,and this team , right now is as good as ive seen in 50 years, but, i have seen the same type if player as Winks many times, the shame for him is, its easier now to play for England, it could be argued Livermore was a better bet then Winks? We could point at Dier, Rose in the final 3rd, but they are more ir less the finished product, in my opinion, yesterday against City, is the last time Winks should start in a " big" fixture, unless he has more leadership nearby, ie Wanyama, Dembele, Dier

 

[Canadaspur]

I see Winks as more of a Paul Scholes type player and I think in time we'll see him move further forward allowing Eriksen some rest games. At the moment Winks isn't experienced enough to carry the team like that so we have to make do and Eriksen has to play more.

Again lol, just an opinion ( yep everyone has one!) but no way can Scholes and Winks be mentioned in the same breath, and Dele is looking childish, half efforts, as if focused on a move away, foolish lad, as unless he remains for a few years at Spurs, he will go the way of many other young players who fail to live up to the initial hype.

 

[Don Diaz]

Firstly, i am a massive Spurs fan,and this team , right now is as good as ive seen in 50 years, but, i have seen the same type if player as Winks many times, the shame for him is, its easier now to play for England, it could be argued Livermore was a better bet then Winks? We could point at Dier, Rose in the final 3rd, but they are more ir less the finished product, in my opinion, yesterday against City, is the last time Winks should start in a " big" fixture, unless he has more leadership nearby, ie Wanyama, Dembele, Dier

I think you're either on a wind up now or just being a bit silly? Dier is a long way from a finished product and yesterday Winks had the 'leadership' of Dembele next to him.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion and everyone has their favourites. But trying to be objective and having read some insight regarding Winks in Poch's book, I'd say that you're misguided. Having played CL and against the Madrid midfield, I'd also suggest that Winks has a some experience of big games.

 

[Canadaspur]

I think you're either on a wind up now or just being a bit silly? Dier is a long way from a finished product and yesterday Winks had the 'leadership' of Dembele next to him.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion and everyone has their favourites. But trying to be objective and having read some insight regarding Winks in Poch's book, I'd say that you're misguided. Having played CL and against the Madrid midfield, I'd also suggest that Winks has a some experience of big games.

Didnt take long for someone to get uppity lol, i am being constructive, its known as a different view, does not have to mean its a wind up, your words, in my opinion Winks is average at best. I think most who read my points understood my leadership comments, ill explain, if in a quality game you begin to under perform, or allow the ame to pass you by, you need bigger personalities to gee you up, keep you in position etc, not ball watch as Winks did for the 1st goal and after, Dier has proved over 4 seasons he is an effective 1st team player, but hes not pulling up trees the past 5 games.

 

[Don Diaz]

Didnt take long for someone to get uppity lol, i am being constructive, its known as a different view, does not have to mean its a wind up, your words, in my opinion Winks is average at best. I think most who read my points understood my leadership comments, ill explain, if in a quality game you begin to under perform, or allow the ame to pass you by, you need bigger personalities to gee you up, keep you in position etc, not ball watch as Winks did for the 1st goal and after, Dier has proved over 4 seasons he is an effective 1st team player, but hes not pulling up trees the past 5 games.

Ha ha fair enough, maybe you watched a different game. I'll leave you with the thought of Eric's closing mistake for their 4th goal and Dembele performance throughout.

since everyone is human and Winks is just 21 years old, remember when Kane was just 21....I'm very happy to trust people really in the know who think he will turn into a great player.

 

[Canadaspur]

Ii hope im wrongQUOTE="Don Diaz, post: 21608, member: 5"]Ha ha fair enough, maybe you watched a different game. I'll leave you with the thought of Eric's closing mistake for their 4th goal and Dembele performance throughout.

since everyone is human and Winks is just 21 years old, remember when Kane was just 21....I'm very happy to trust people really in the know who think he will turn into a great player.[/QUOTE]
I

 

[Canadaspur]

I hope im wrong!

 

[Canadaspur]

I hope i am wrong, but i did say Dier has not been pylling up trees!

 

[Canadaspur]

Pulling up trees even

 

[J.spurs]

At this point Winks isn't capable of doing what we need him to do, but its no good criticizing him for the player he isn't. He needs to be paired with the likes of Wanyama or Dier, which gives him a bit of license to do what he's good at. 7-8 years ago people were saying the same things about Modric that Winks is getting thrown at him now. I'm not saying that Winks is, or maybe ever will be, on that level, but he has already shown he's got a world class performance in his locker. I think a lot of the criticism being leveled at him has more to do with how much better Citeh were than us overall than anything he did wrong. Almost everybody looked off the pace on Saturday.

 

[Yid]

Again lol, just an opinion ( yep everyone has one!) but no way can Scholes and Winks be mentioned in the same breath, and Dele is looking childish, half efforts, as if focused on a move away, foolish lad, as unless he remains for a few years at Spurs, he will go the way of many other young players who fail to live up to the initial hype.

I don't see much wrong with this point of view. Pessimistic but potentially carrying some elements of possible truth.

 

[deejbah]

Amazing how much difference Ederson makes to their game. Gives them so much more ability to play Guardiola's preferred style. Swap the goalkeepers around for the two teams and it becomes a totally different game.

We got absolutely killed on transitions and they have so much quality in this kind of play that you can't afford to give them those opportunities. I think the one positive from the game is that we did have a substantial period of the game where we got back into it.

I've watched a lot of De Bruyne and Sane in the Bundesliga - to me it's not surprising how good they've become. For me De Bruyne is right up there in the top five players in the world at the moment. Incredible all round player.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

The Cryptkeeper's ratings:

Lloris - his disposal was woeful. Not culpable for any of the goals but can do a lot better. 4
Trippier - now to be fair, Leroy Sane is one hell of a player but Trippier presented it to him on a platter all afternoon and got his due reaming as a result. 2
Dier - rotten, just rotten. 2
Vertonghen - the only one of the back 4 who can hold his head up. 6
Rose - clearly wants to leave....and can, for all I care. 3
Winks - his worst game in a Spurs shirt. Will learn from it. 3
Dembele - tried hard, badly exposed a couple of times by pretend superstar De Bruyne. Not the player he was. 4
Dele - nope, never showed up. His tackle on De Bruyne was disgraceful and he had no impact other than that. 2
Eriksen - yeah, scored....but so what? Gets no kudos from me for scoring in junk time when he was anonymous for the rest of it. 3
Son - average. 4
Kane - could not have played worse and should have been red-carded. 3

 

[J.spurs]

Amazing how much difference Ederson makes to their game. Gives them so much more ability to play Guardiola's preferred style. Swap the goalkeepers around for the two teams and it becomes a totally different game.

We got absolutely killed on transitions and they have so much quality in this kind of play that you can't afford to give them those opportunities. I think the one positive from the game is that we did have a substantial period of the game where we got back into it.

I've watched a lot of De Bruyne and Sane in the Bundesliga - to me it's not surprising how good they've become. For me De Bruyne is right up there in the top five players in the world at the moment. Incredible all round player.

When I saw City in the friendly this summer in person I told my kids that they would win the league by 15 points. What's deceptive about De Bruyne is his athleticism and strength. I don't like anything about what Citeh represent, and tbh I find Pep to be an insufferable self-righteous prick. But there's no denying how brilliant their football has been for most of this season.

I watched some pretty in-depth highlights and tactical analysis of the game this morning, and like you say the long balls that Ederson played out were extraordinary, and hit at such pace that they (unavoidably) caught us out badly. I don't know if he was the difference in this game, but he's definitely a major difference between their team this year and last.