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Danny Rose

D

Dustin

Active Member
Its a worry that the other left side CB Wimmer appears dead and buried now,he even got a run out against chelsea in the role covering danny`s suspension.I am not worried we are passing over Wimmer,more that we are down to just having Davies now and after that mis matching as best we can.
Really hoping Danny gets back before next round of EL games stretches us with midweek/weekend routine.

Well we have some breathing room now I guess. :/

I don't think Wimmer has been passed over, he's had his games over the past couple seasons. I think he just simply lacks the quickness and pace needed to play in our high line and is even more vulnerable when stretched in a back 3 in transition. I know he is a quality back up and young - and I'm sure he could settle down on the ball a bit more, but I don't see him getting faster and it is hard to see him making it into MP's long term plans without that. I will be surprised if Wimmer is still here next season - he would be a starter on most mid to low table prem teams, and would also start on a number of top teams in other leagues. We could sell him for a good price fast, the only problem we have is finding a left-footer that fits the bill.

I did wonder during the Liverpool game if MP could have changed formation by simply dropping Dembele into a back 3 and getting Dier the hell out of there:

------Dier---Toby---Dembele----------
Walker---Eriksen--Wanyama---Davies
---------------Alli---------Son-----------
-------------------Kane------------------

If he wasn't so invaluable in the midfield, I could see him covering there and beating opposition high presses like it was sunday at the park (and giving us heart attacks in the process).
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Well we have some breathing room now I guess. :/

I don't think Wimmer has been passed over, he's had his games over the past couple seasons. I think he just simply lacks the quickness and pace needed to play in our high line and is even more vulnerable when stretched in a back 3 in transition. I know he is a quality back up and young - and I'm sure he could settle down on the ball a bit more, but I don't see him getting faster and it is hard to see him making it into MP's long term plans without that. I will be surprised if Wimmer is still here next season - he would be a starter on most mid to low table prem teams, and would also start on a number of top teams in other leagues. We could sell him for a good price fast, the only problem we have is finding a left-footer that fits the bill.

I did wonder during the Liverpool game if MP could have changed formation by simply dropping Dembele into a back 3 and getting Dier the hell out of there:

------Dier---Toby---Dembele----------
Walker---Eriksen--Wanyama---Davies
---------------Alli---------Son-----------
-------------------Kane------------------

If he wasn't so invaluable in the midfield, I could see him covering there and beating opposition high presses like it was sunday at the park (and giving us heart attacks in the process).
Think you are right about Wimmer,shame because he passes well and did ok next to toby in a back 4,but he is like you feel just too slow for Poch`s higher line.
 
Don Diaz

Don Diaz

Zero tolerance of Numpty's
Founding Member
Please can we never ever revert back to that AVB high line defending........ever. It was suicide as matches and scorelines against teams with nippy agile forwards will testify. Toby and Jan are top drawer together, let's not test their turn and sprint capabilities as well.
 
D

Dustin

Active Member
Please can we never ever revert back to that AVB high line defending........ever. It was suicide as matches and scorelines against teams with nippy agile forwards will testify. Toby and Jan are top drawer together, let's not test their turn and sprint capabilities as well.

It was suicide, but I disagree with the idea that the difference in AVB and MPs high-line is "how-high", but rather the difference is in personnel and how the wider team protects our currently very high line. More often than not we have been playing a line every bit as high as AVB's (and even higher at times) for a long time now. But today we are in a whole new world of personnel and commitment. I just looked up the team that got destroyed by Liverpool before AVB got the sack the back 4 was: Walker-Capoue-Dawson-Naughton. ...(yep Naughton was playing on his wrong foot shows just how little options we had).. Other CBs that season? Vlad slower-than-your-mother Chirches, Aging legs Kaboul - and the CM cover was essentially limited to Dembele and Sandro - fantastic, but who did they have backing them up? Big Tom, Livermore and Sky Captain of Yesteryear Parker. My point here is that if you look at that team's speed of transition compared to our team today, you'lll see that today we are in a different reality and thus playing a similarly high line actually works! Toby, Jan and Dier's turn and sprint capabilities are outstanding for CBs that can also win balls in the air, but that is only half of it, as they are only tested half as often with Wanyama/Dier and Dembele actually competently covering them and having a team fully invested in the press. The amount of times we lose the ball now and get caught out on the counter, compared to back then, equates to a lot less goals conceded.

I hate hijacking a Danny Rose thread... but hear we go... AVB's tactics were at the forefront of the shift to pressing tactics that is already become commonplace - this is why he was hired, and why after he failed, we still went and found another manager with a similar category of football tactics. At the time it was widely agreed by people really into the "Jonanthan Wilson"-style of looking at the history/evolution of tactics that that was the direction football was heading. I am amazed even now to see just how quickly that has become true - the high press, counter-pressing, counter-attacking styles coupled with possession-football became mainstream way faster than other mainstream shifts in tactics that we have seen in the past. But for AVB, the issue he had is he did not have the dressing room or the personnel to carry out his brand of tactics - and he was way too dogmatic (or under too much pressure for success) to go back a few years and build a team needed to carry it out --- I honestly wonder which of the two it was, but either way, certainly his man-management was nowhere near good enough and he always was more likely to fail to reach top 4. MP came into a better situation in terms of an academy that was already a couple of years in transition and maturing - and then he did something that AVB didn't have the balls to do - he cleaned out all the "old hats" that didn't fit his system or didn't want to get on board. Tactically, they are of course differences between the two, MP has been fantastic and has built a team from the back forward - but both are in a similar modern category of football managers that play high pressing style first inspired by Bielsa - one which is clearly evolving to the next level as teams are becoming much better equipped to play it.
 
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Don Diaz

Don Diaz

Zero tolerance of Numpty's
Founding Member
It was suicide, but I disagree with the idea that the difference in AVB and MPs high-line is "how-high", but rather the difference is in personnel and how the wider team protects our currently very high line. More often than not we have been playing a line every bit as high as AVB's (and even higher at times) for a long time now. But today we are in a whole new world of personnel and commitment. I just looked up the team that got destroyed by Liverpool before AVB got the sack the back 4 was: Walker-Capoue-Dawson-Naughton. ...(yep Naughton was playing on his wrong foot shows just how little options we had).. Other CBs that season? Vlad slower-than-your-mother Chirches, Aging legs Kaboul - and the CM cover was essentially limited to Dembele and Sandro - fantastic, but who did they have backing them up? Big Tom, Livermore and Sky Captain of Yesteryear Parker. My point here is that if you look at that team's speed of transition compared to our team today, you'lll see that today we are in a different reality and thus playing a similarly high line actually works! Toby, Jan and Dier's turn and sprint capabilities are outstanding for CBs that can also win balls in the air, but that is only half of it, as they are only tested half as often with Wanyama/Dier and Dembele actually competently covering them and having a team fully invested in the press. The amount of times we lose the ball now and get caught out on the counter, compared to back then, equates to a lot less goals conceded.

I hate hijacking a Danny Rose thread... but hear we go... AVB's tactics were at the forefront of the shift to pressing tactics that is already become commonplace - this is why he was hired, and why after he failed, we still went and found another manager with a similar category of football tactics. At the time it was widely agreed by people really into the "Jonanthan Wilson"-style of looking at the history/evolution of tactics that that was the direction football was heading. I am amazed even now to see just how quickly that has become true - the high press, counter-pressing, counter-attacking styles coupled with possession-football became mainstream way faster than other mainstream shifts in tactics that we have seen in the past. But for AVB, the issue he had is he did not have the dressing room or the personnel to carry out his brand of tactics - and he was way too dogmatic (or under too much pressure for success) to go back a few years and build a team needed to carry it out --- I honestly wonder which of the two it was, but either way, certainly his man-management was nowhere near good enough and he always was more likely to fail to reach top 4. MP came into a better situation in terms of an academy that was already a couple of years in transition and maturing - and then he did something that AVB didn't have the balls to do - he cleaned out all the "old hats" that didn't fit his system or didn't want to get on board. Tactically, they are of course differences between the two, MP has been fantastic and has built a team from the back forward - but both are in a similar modern category of football managers that play high pressing style first inspired by Bielsa - one which is clearly evolving to the next level as teams are becoming much better equipped to play it.
I'm going to read and digest before responding tomorrow.

One thing I did notice today however and well before the game was 'safe' was Vertonghen marauding forward, at one point playing No. 9.....also Dier and once Toby playing in very advanced roles. I'm all for ' total football' in an Ajax style, with fluidity for the players, if you can remember that far back. But high defensive lines are not my thing at all.....!!
 
J.spurs

J.spurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
I'm going to read and digest before responding tomorrow.

One thing I did notice today however and well before the game was 'safe' was Vertonghen marauding forward, at one point playing No. 9.....also Dier and once Toby playing in very advanced roles. I'm all for ' total football' in an Ajax style, with fluidity for the players, if you can remember that far back. But high defensive lines are not my thing at all.....!!
High line doesn't work, and is in fact disastrous, without pressure on the ball all over the pitch. That requires athleticism, extraordinary fitness, and commitment throughout the side. We're a lot closer to having that now, which is why Poch's teams don't look like idiots when they play a high line. The flip side of that is that if you press without playing a high line, there's space in front of the back four, which defeats the purpose of the press. To bring it back to the OT, it also means we really miss Rose, since the high press tends to see our front three or four compressed in space, with wing backs providing the width. Davies is good, but just not as athletic (and I think intelligent) a player.
 
D

Dustin

Active Member
I'm going to read and digest before responding tomorrow.

One thing I did notice today however and well before the game was 'safe' was Vertonghen marauding forward, at one point playing No. 9.....also Dier and once Toby playing in very advanced roles. I'm all for ' total football' in an Ajax style, with fluidity for the players, if you can remember that far back. But high defensive lines are not my thing at all.....!!

I think Jan making these runs with the ball is a combination of Davies staying deeper and wide, compared to rose staying wide and further advanced - so it opens up space that Jan can easily sprint into. But also, it seems Jan deep down wishes he was a striker and wants his Maradona dribble it in from half moment, so even when Rose comes back he probably is going to give it a go from time to time!
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
I think Jan making these runs with the ball is a combination of Davies staying deeper and wide, compared to rose staying wide and further advanced - so it opens up space that Jan can easily sprint into. But also, it seems Jan deep down wishes he was a striker and wants his Maradona dribble it in from half moment, so even when Rose comes back he probably is going to give it a go from time to time!
It works so well if toby,jan,dier carry the ball out,as mostly wanyama doesnt go all cavalry and join in,also eriksen is good when needed protecting space on his flank,doesnt tackle much,but puts a lot of effort in to being right side if defenders have gone walkabout.Thats a weakness of son&dele the lack of awareness when others have bombed on.I know its not their job but you can see others are aware to danger.
 
Don Diaz

Don Diaz

Zero tolerance of Numpty's
Founding Member
It was suicide, but I disagree with the idea that the difference in AVB and MPs high-line is "how-high", but rather the difference is in personnel and how the wider team protects our currently very high line. More often than not we have been playing a line every bit as high as AVB's (and even higher at times) for a long time now. But today we are in a whole new world of personnel and commitment. I just looked up the team that got destroyed by Liverpool before AVB got the sack the back 4 was: Walker-Capoue-Dawson-Naughton. ...(yep Naughton was playing on his wrong foot shows just how little options we had).. Other CBs that season? Vlad slower-than-your-mother Chirches, Aging legs Kaboul - and the CM cover was essentially limited to Dembele and Sandro - fantastic, but who did they have backing them up? Big Tom, Livermore and Sky Captain of Yesteryear Parker. My point here is that if you look at that team's speed of transition compared to our team today, you'lll see that today we are in a different reality and thus playing a similarly high line actually works! Toby, Jan and Dier's turn and sprint capabilities are outstanding for CBs that can also win balls in the air, but that is only half of it, as they are only tested half as often with Wanyama/Dier and Dembele actually competently covering them and having a team fully invested in the press. The amount of times we lose the ball now and get caught out on the counter, compared to back then, equates to a lot less goals conceded.

I hate hijacking a Danny Rose thread... but hear we go... AVB's tactics were at the forefront of the shift to pressing tactics that is already become commonplace - this is why he was hired, and why after he failed, we still went and found another manager with a similar category of football tactics. At the time it was widely agreed by people really into the "Jonanthan Wilson"-style of looking at the history/evolution of tactics that that was the direction football was heading. I am amazed even now to see just how quickly that has become true - the high press, counter-pressing, counter-attacking styles coupled with possession-football became mainstream way faster than other mainstream shifts in tactics that we have seen in the past. But for AVB, the issue he had is he did not have the dressing room or the personnel to carry out his brand of tactics - and he was way too dogmatic (or under too much pressure for success) to go back a few years and build a team needed to carry it out --- I honestly wonder which of the two it was, but either way, certainly his man-management was nowhere near good enough and he always was more likely to fail to reach top 4. MP came into a better situation in terms of an academy that was already a couple of years in transition and maturing - and then he did something that AVB didn't have the balls to do - he cleaned out all the "old hats" that didn't fit his system or didn't want to get on board. Tactically, they are of course differences between the two, MP has been fantastic and has built a team from the back forward - but both are in a similar modern category of football managers that play high pressing style first inspired by Bielsa - one which is clearly evolving to the next level as teams are becoming much better equipped to play it.
Well I've read this and realise that I don't have much of a tactical clue, apart from to say that my eyes tell me, it's not a good idea to have a vast wilderness between Hugo and the last line of our defence for the opposition to pass or run into. I appreciate that we've been defending very well these last two seasons, in fact better than anyone really, so if it's not broken, why try and fix it. I think it's possible to be over tactical at times and miss some of the obvious - take the Liverpool game as a case in point.
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Well I've read this and realise that I don't have much of a tactical clue, apart from to say that my eyes tell me, it's not a good idea to have a vast wilderness between Hugo and the last line of our defence for the opposition to pass or run into. I appreciate that we've been defending very well these last two seasons, in fact better than anyone really, so if it's not broken, why try and fix it. I think it's possible to be over tactical at times and miss some of the obvious - take the Liverpool game as a case in point.
high line isnt bad,if you are up against the right players or can cantrol the game,look at stoke,sat a bit deeper and all that lovely room between their defence and the halfway line cos their midfield played too high.Its impossible to cover a whole pitch area with 10 players,so pick your battles,let a team have the ball and sit back passively hoping for a counter,or go seeking it not allowing them time but the chance of areas behind or just infront of your defence.Whilst AVBs high line was unsuited with personnel,i am glad we are proactive and not playing chess anymore waiting for a gap to appear after 5 mins of sideways,backwards passing.The highline starts from the striker pressing and the midfield following suit,its why its so ridiculously hard to find a player to takeover from Kane,a 20 a season goalscorer who chases hard for the team.Its why it took Poch 5 secs to dispense with adebayor,and why aguero would cost the earth (as will kane if he ever left).The liverpool thing I feel was a bit naive by us,we went toe to toe on their ground,a bit less cavalier and frustrating may have been the answer,but poch sticks to his guns,wants us to play our game and not match up for the opposition and change style.Its his job,so i guess he calls the shots,and is also learning too along the way.We may well have been passive,sat back and got beaten by 3 or 4 and then the meltdown would have been even more yuger.
 
Don Diaz

Don Diaz

Zero tolerance of Numpty's
Founding Member
,i am glad we are proactive and not playing chess anymore waiting for a gap to appear after 5 mins of sideways,backwards passing..
That used to annoy the hell out of me and still does on occasion that it happens, even at 4-0 up!!
 
Finchbee

Finchbee

Well-Known Member
its a straight battle with the old wheel of doom isnt it?i mean sign in buy your seat where you can,not a ballot.

I have missed the wheel of doom, at least it was less of a lottery than the lucky dip
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Danny Rose gives injury update and admits frustration at sitting on the sidelines
The Spurs defender has been out since the end of January with a knee injury
Danny Rose has understandably admitted he is finding it hard to watch his Tottenham teammates in action as he continues to be frustrated by a knee injury.

The England left-back picked up his problem in the 0-0 draw with Sunderland back on January 31 and hasn’t been seen a Spurs shirt since.

He was pencilled to return for this weekend’s game with Everton in the Premier League but obviously, that’s not going to happen, with Rose revealing on Soccer AM this morning (Saturday) that he could be out for another few weeks.
Rose was injured on a Tuesday night but didn’t see the specialist until the following Monday.

Rose said: “I thought I’d be back fit by now but I had to see a specialist a couple of weeks ago and they told me it’ll be another three or four weeks before I am back in training.“I feared the worst. I don’t normally come off and for me to say I need to come off, I knew it was serious.
“I have had an operation on my knee before but I think I have dodged a bullet with this one.

“It is hard for me to watch when the team is playing well. I was playing well too and it is very hard watching the lads. I went to the game last weekend against Stoke and had to leave after 60 minutes as it was too difficult to watch.”

http://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/players/danny-rose-gives-injury-update-12691427
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...eturn-in-time-for-arsenal-clash-a3504271.html

Danny Rose is hopeful he will be able to play at least some part in Tottenham’s key matches this season after visiting a specialist on Thursday.

The England defender has taken longer than expected to recover from the medial knee ligament injury he sustained in the goalless draw at Sunderland on January 31, and has now had a further check on his progress.

The upshot is that both player and club believe Rose’s rehabilitation is on track and they expect him to return before the end of the campaign, possibly in time for the derby against Arsenal at White Hart Lane on April 30.
 
conor1

conor1

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
I still expect him to make the PFA team of the year. He has been that good this season imo
 
D

Dustin

Active Member
We miss him, but as long as our back-three is in tact Davies is sufficient and therefore I hope they don't rush Rose back unless he is really 100%. A knee to him will very much compromise his game, so if he needs the rest of the season, so be it.
 
Finchbee

Finchbee

Well-Known Member
knee not fixed so will have an op, wont play again this season
 
Chavhater01

Chavhater01

Well-Known Member
knee not fixed so will have an op, wont play again this season

First Lamela and now Danny, I'm sure at the time, both were supposed short term injuries. Well as long as they're both back firing for next season, then all good!

Ben Davies has done a hell of a job filling in, wasn't sold on Ben but am now, he's a really good solid performer. Was hung out to dry a bit against Liverpool but shows what a good consistent run of games can do for the confidence.
 
conor1

conor1

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
I'll say it again, huge fan of Danny Rose and in my opinion was the best LB in the league by a distance but the fact we didn't miss him says a hell of a lot about Ben Davies. He has been superb and the fact he had to replace the best and did it so seamlessly is huge credit to him. How lucky are we to have the best CBs in the country as well as the 2 best RBs and the 2 best LBs. Seriously, I wouldn't thank you for any of the defenders currently playing for any side in the league above them.
 
Yid

Yid

Moderator
Founding Member
We went for about 15 years with having utter dross at fullback, on either side.

Now we have the best defence across the line including their understudies... it's frightening how good the first choice players are and as has been said..... haven't missed them due to the ability of their replacements.

COYS
 
C

corroded

Well-Known Member
Yeah it's weird how that's been spun... Today papers are saying united are after him, but to be honest the talk of being there time and wanting change seemed to be directed about Walker, and not himself.
 
skiathospurs

skiathospurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Yeah it's weird how that's been spun... Today papers are saying united are after him, but to be honest the talk of being there time and wanting change seemed to be directed about Walker, and not himself.
Thats how I took it too,I am sure Danny wouldnt have set himself up for a confrontation with Pochettino by speaking so free&easy about his own circumstance.Poch has made Rose an international star player,10 years at spurs this year,I simply cannot see him jumping ship ATM.
 
Finchbee

Finchbee

Well-Known Member
Thats how I took it too,I am sure Danny wouldnt have set himself up for a confrontation with Pochettino by speaking so free&easy about his own circumstance.Poch has made Rose an international star player,10 years at spurs this year,I simply cannot see him jumping ship ATM.

I think the praise Rose has given him says it all! Why you leave the best manager in the league to go and play for a whinging piece of shite
 
J.spurs

J.spurs

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Thats how I took it too,I am sure Danny wouldnt have set himself up for a confrontation with Pochettino by speaking so free&easy about his own circumstance.Poch has made Rose an international star player,10 years at spurs this year,I simply cannot see him jumping ship ATM.
Yes, plus even if he wanted to leave, now would be an awkward time for all parties as he's just had surgery, right? I'm not worried about him leaving at all. I actually thought the interview was refreshing, nice to read a player who doesn't just give shite answers.
 
Don Diaz

Don Diaz

Zero tolerance of Numpty's
Founding Member
beware their bastard agents
 
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