The Cryptkeeper
The Aussie Yid
So far out of his depth it’s scary.
Style And Glory
On My High Trojan Horse
Founding Member
Just the sight of him chewing on that gum & not doing anything else to alter the match pisses me off.
J.spurs
Well-Known Member
Founding Member
He has to take some of the blame, just like Ange did, but he’s got the same basic problem, which is that we have maybe 2-3 players that would get in their team. Our lack of a proper number 9 is especially glaring.
Against good teams we don’t have the pace to play on the counter, and we don’t have the quality to control long stretches of the game. This looks a midtable squad of players (albeit with some promising youngsters) at the moment.
Havocc
Well-Known Member
Founding Member
4 months into a season and trying to recover a team who were relegation candidates last year. We are still 3 points from 4th, above Liverpool and United.
Have some context people. Rome wasnt built in a day…
Have some context people. Rome wasnt built in a day…
Dave
If I lived here I'd be home now.
Founding Member
I literally just said the same thing on the match day thread.
Couldn't agree more.
Style And Glory
On My High Trojan Horse
Founding Member
@Havocc & @J.spurs I respect your opinions, balanced perspectives, & optimism but Frank was brought in because of his so called ability to adapt, his tactical nous, play various formations, & elevate the play of his players.
Many of these players are NT members of the highest level ie France, Netherlands, Argentina, England, Uruguay etc. We're not talking about minnows like Grenada, Papa New Guinea, Ecuador or even Canada. He should be getting much more out of these players at his disposal. They're not playing to their potential.
Yes we are 4 months into the season, but I don't see any of his above strengths. I don't see any semblance of some cohesive plan. I'm not advocating for having Ange back, but at least we knew from the get go how we were going to play & it was exciting. Here, I have no idea what to expect going game to game except that it will bore me & possibly end in disappointment. Shockingly, we are still not far off of Top 4 but, based on what I'm seeing, I would bet it will get worse before it gets any better. Honestly, I really hope I'm wrong.
Many of these players are NT members of the highest level ie France, Netherlands, Argentina, England, Uruguay etc. We're not talking about minnows like Grenada, Papa New Guinea, Ecuador or even Canada. He should be getting much more out of these players at his disposal. They're not playing to their potential.
Yes we are 4 months into the season, but I don't see any of his above strengths. I don't see any semblance of some cohesive plan. I'm not advocating for having Ange back, but at least we knew from the get go how we were going to play & it was exciting. Here, I have no idea what to expect going game to game except that it will bore me & possibly end in disappointment. Shockingly, we are still not far off of Top 4 but, based on what I'm seeing, I would bet it will get worse before it gets any better. Honestly, I really hope I'm wrong.
J.spurs
Well-Known Member
Founding Member
This is true, but it’s also true of almost everybody else at this point. The standard in England is miles beyond where it was even when Poch was in charge. To my eye, there aren’t many of our XI that would feature regularly for the clubs we think we ought to be competing against.
That doesn’t mean they can’t be molded into something bigger than the sum of their parts, but it’ll take time and one or two better parts if you know what I mean. Saying that, I do agree that the football needs to be more progressive, especially at home. That’s just part of the job at Spurs.
ClemFandango
Lord High Chief of the Privvy
Founding Member
Borrowing a couple of these from twitter.
"I’ve been at games where we’ve been 5-0 down to Newcastle after 21 minutes. I’ve stood in the rain and watched Bayern put 7 past us. I saw Tore Andre Flo score a hat trick for Chelsea when they beat us 6-1 at WHL. But those two performances against Chelsea and Arsenal in recent weeks are by far and away the most abject I’ve ever seen from a Spurs team.
The matches mentioned may be more eye catching because of the results, but we had shots in those games. We had periods where we attacked. Where we put pressure on the opposition. At no point in either of these recent derbies did Tottenham assert any pressure on the opposition. And that is unforgivable.
One match is unacceptable, but for it to happen again so soon after - with no more attacking intent implemented in to the second game. With 8 of the players on the pitch more renowned for their defending than their attacking - that is sackable for me. It means you don’t understand the remit of your job. It means you dont understand the club you’re managing. It means you’re not seeing what everyone else is seeing. It means you’re not learning from your mistakes.
And to then say that the system isn’t the problem. If you put 2 defensive midfielders, 5 defenders and a goalkeeper on the pitch - that sends a message to everyone; the players, the opposition, the fans - that you are there to defend. It’s a visible inferiority complex. It’s acceptable at Brentford, we don’t accept it at Tottenham. If Antonio Conte couldn’t get away with it for more than a year - why should Thomas Frank.
I’m not going early. This is certain in my eyes. This isn’t going to work, Frank is not the right fit. The most painful thing is that we will have to watch this turgid football for at least another month before the board have the guts to end it. Don’t be fooled by sitting 9th with 18 points. We’re 7 points clear of 17th."
also ..
"I’m exhausted with this false characterisation of the 17th place finish. Now being used by our current manager to ease pressure on himself. That same side finished 5th the previous season. We played with Archie Gray and Ben Davies at centre back for 3 months. We then clearly rested our better players for the last 3 months of the league season in order to focus on the Europa League, which turned out to be absolutely the right decision by the way.
Anyone with a good enough memory will know we were playing some fantastic football leading up to the injury crisis, with a few dodgy results thrown in there, and a couple of games we absolutely deserved to win that we didn’t.
This isn’t to defend Ange. He’s gone, that’s over. But Thomas Frank has had a fully fit defence nearly all season. He also has plenty of attacking options, even if we are missing some important players. But going forward we are absolutely void of any ideas. And we have been for some time. That’s on him.
To go to the Emirates and employ tactics that you would expect from a national league team playing in the FA cup against Arsenal is not only unacceptable, it’s a disgrace.
This is even more important because we’ve already seen the same performance served up at home to Chelsea only a few weeks ago. Incredibly, we managed to be even worse today.
The game plan was to sit back, hope for free kicks and then allow our goalkeeper, who’s weakest attribute is his kicking, to hoof aimless balls in to the box in the hope that a player might get his head on it.
I have seen absolutely nothing so far from Frank to suggest he’s going to change his approach, and that’s why he needs to go now."
"I’ve been at games where we’ve been 5-0 down to Newcastle after 21 minutes. I’ve stood in the rain and watched Bayern put 7 past us. I saw Tore Andre Flo score a hat trick for Chelsea when they beat us 6-1 at WHL. But those two performances against Chelsea and Arsenal in recent weeks are by far and away the most abject I’ve ever seen from a Spurs team.
The matches mentioned may be more eye catching because of the results, but we had shots in those games. We had periods where we attacked. Where we put pressure on the opposition. At no point in either of these recent derbies did Tottenham assert any pressure on the opposition. And that is unforgivable.
One match is unacceptable, but for it to happen again so soon after - with no more attacking intent implemented in to the second game. With 8 of the players on the pitch more renowned for their defending than their attacking - that is sackable for me. It means you don’t understand the remit of your job. It means you dont understand the club you’re managing. It means you’re not seeing what everyone else is seeing. It means you’re not learning from your mistakes.
And to then say that the system isn’t the problem. If you put 2 defensive midfielders, 5 defenders and a goalkeeper on the pitch - that sends a message to everyone; the players, the opposition, the fans - that you are there to defend. It’s a visible inferiority complex. It’s acceptable at Brentford, we don’t accept it at Tottenham. If Antonio Conte couldn’t get away with it for more than a year - why should Thomas Frank.
I’m not going early. This is certain in my eyes. This isn’t going to work, Frank is not the right fit. The most painful thing is that we will have to watch this turgid football for at least another month before the board have the guts to end it. Don’t be fooled by sitting 9th with 18 points. We’re 7 points clear of 17th."
also ..
"I’m exhausted with this false characterisation of the 17th place finish. Now being used by our current manager to ease pressure on himself. That same side finished 5th the previous season. We played with Archie Gray and Ben Davies at centre back for 3 months. We then clearly rested our better players for the last 3 months of the league season in order to focus on the Europa League, which turned out to be absolutely the right decision by the way.
Anyone with a good enough memory will know we were playing some fantastic football leading up to the injury crisis, with a few dodgy results thrown in there, and a couple of games we absolutely deserved to win that we didn’t.
This isn’t to defend Ange. He’s gone, that’s over. But Thomas Frank has had a fully fit defence nearly all season. He also has plenty of attacking options, even if we are missing some important players. But going forward we are absolutely void of any ideas. And we have been for some time. That’s on him.
To go to the Emirates and employ tactics that you would expect from a national league team playing in the FA cup against Arsenal is not only unacceptable, it’s a disgrace.
This is even more important because we’ve already seen the same performance served up at home to Chelsea only a few weeks ago. Incredibly, we managed to be even worse today.
The game plan was to sit back, hope for free kicks and then allow our goalkeeper, who’s weakest attribute is his kicking, to hoof aimless balls in to the box in the hope that a player might get his head on it.
I have seen absolutely nothing so far from Frank to suggest he’s going to change his approach, and that’s why he needs to go now."
ClemFandango
Lord High Chief of the Privvy
Founding Member
Yid
Moderator
Founding Member
This aged like milk...
For all those pissed at the patheticness of our performances... I see you... I hear you... I am as yet to see a Frank side that makes me think WOW, this could be fun or at the absolute fucking least... Effective.
But 12 games, with the same shit players that probably would have been relegated in 9 out of the 10 previous seasons... Settle those knees down a bit...
The appointment of Lange, Patrici and All the other scouts needs to be looked into as they are the same tired legacy that went with Levy... And should have ended with Levy.
Our entire recruitment needs to modernise and meet what the top tier players expect if you actually want top tier players...
We have the best revenue in the league, the best infrastructure, the best finances, the best ticket prices, the best stadium etc etc etc...
But we still pay cheap fees and wages and attract cheap players.
This side needs a wholesale clear out of shit and rebuilding... As does the actual ethos of the club... This change of "New Lewis's" is just smoke and fucking mirrors... Nothing has changed apart from the name on the deeds...
Frank and his football are symptoms not the fucking cause.
jaxdermot
Well-Known Member
well he hasn't lost a Champions League game against PSG ..
ugg..
I thought Frank was flexible... inventive... progressive. Perhaps I didn't watch enough Brentford matches... but the ones we faced (at least in my muddled memory)they were defensive teams but they looked like they had a desire to attack, they sprung quickly and decisively, devastatingly. The Brentford teams didn't look scared of the ball, yes they sat back but with a purpose. This team under Frank appears to have been told that backwards is the way backwards. I think I enjoyed watching Conte's attacking prowess more than this shit..
J.spurs
Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Good post. We are perennially trying to find a manager that can build a good attacking (or in Mou/Conte's cases, defensive) side that can punch above its weight like Harry and Poch did. Frank may yet be that manager, or he may not. But like all these guys, he's being asked to do a lot with a little at this point.
Doesn't excuse his negative team selection, obviously, but you're spot on about the players. Yes, we binned off the league to compete for the EL, and yes, it was a truly great night, but in the cold light of day we beat one good team (Frankfurt) to get there, and did so playing more or less how Frank has us set up right now. It's ridiculous to say winning a major trophy papered over the cracks, since winning trophies is the point.
But Frank took over a weak squad that doesn't seem to have gotten much stronger over the summer. There is a lot of potential there in the younger boys, and he's good at developing players, so I hope we can string some performances together and that he sticks around. Many more outings like Chelsea or Arsenal, and it will be Nuno part 2. But as you suggest, it's hard to see that changing much.
Dave
If I lived here I'd be home now.
Founding Member
If Frank didn't work out, being realistic, the only manager I'd want is Glasner. He's quality...
Style And Glory
On My High Trojan Horse
Founding Member
But he's so similar to Frank. Defensive, pragmatic & succeeded at smaller clubs with counter attacking.
Dave
If I lived here I'd be home now.
Founding Member
I take your point, but I think he's a step above. Don't think he's all counter attacking though. Remember seeing them destroy Liverpool earlier in the season and they just smothered them.
Think Frank should be given a proper go though. 3 windows, key players available like Madders and Kulo. We'd be a completely different proposition imo...
ClemFandango
Lord High Chief of the Privvy
Founding Member
I read a quote earlier on that said something like “We didn’t go for the Bournemouth manager who outplayed and beat us twice last season, we went for the Brentford manager who we beat home and away”.
spurious
Well-Known Member
I think we did go for him. But he decided to stay put.
Dave
If I lived here I'd be home now.
Founding Member
Says it all really. Bournemouth was a better proposition. Wow...think about that.
ClemFandango
Lord High Chief of the Privvy
Founding Member
jaxdermot
Well-Known Member
Dave
If I lived here I'd be home now.
Founding Member
Can all these managers be shite ? Mourinho, Conte, Nuno, Ange and now Frank ? Why don't we ever really look on the pitch ? Yeah we call out individual performances and errors but collectively the players at this football club have been far too comfortable in their plush training facilities and stadium.
I'm not seeing 100% effort from them. I'm not seeing them busting a gut to get there first, or constantly trying to get at the opposition any way they can.
There's no leaders, just finger pointers. Players who say we must do better but won't look in the mirror.
We have average PL players in a privileged position. How many are really going to leave nothing on the pitch ? 3, maybe 4 ? That leaves 7 passenger's. Manager after manager have come and gone from this club scratching their heads wondering why there is such a complacent comfortable feel to it. NOBODY wants to take responsibility. But it's always the manager that loses his job, never the overpaid underperformer ON the pitch.
I'm completely fed up with this shite.
I'm not seeing 100% effort from them. I'm not seeing them busting a gut to get there first, or constantly trying to get at the opposition any way they can.
There's no leaders, just finger pointers. Players who say we must do better but won't look in the mirror.
We have average PL players in a privileged position. How many are really going to leave nothing on the pitch ? 3, maybe 4 ? That leaves 7 passenger's. Manager after manager have come and gone from this club scratching their heads wondering why there is such a complacent comfortable feel to it. NOBODY wants to take responsibility. But it's always the manager that loses his job, never the overpaid underperformer ON the pitch.
I'm completely fed up with this shite.
jaxdermot
Well-Known Member
Well said.. a bunch of these players appear to be in it for the paycheck. Let the kids play and see if any of them want to prove they belong at Tottenham.
I don't think all those Managers were shit but I don't think they really wanted to be at Tottenham ( especially Conte & Mourinho)
I feel those two were happy to be fired and then were happy to bitch about how "it's Tottenham". Also I'm not sure any manager has been fully backed/allowed to fill his squad as he truly wished.
Unfortunately we need a Manager like Poch who somehow got the most out of everybody (look at how the US Team is playing , fringe players appear to give extra effort)
Perhaps we need to try and find an ex Tottenham player, at least he'll understand what Tottenham means.
Hopefully this new Board will truly back the Manager, maybe even back Frank and give him a chance to succeed.
Unfortunately I've overacted and kinda feel like this team is already broken, and Frank is a big part of the problem
COYS???
J.spurs
Well-Known Member
Founding Member
The manager is the face of everything, which is why they're well paid. So I'm not really defending Frank, who has clearly not prepared the team well in some games.
But this is a haphazardly recruited squad. We don't have the players to play with any style, much less the style of play we want to see. Players like Udogie, Van de Ven, and Porro are very good players, but they're not really cut out for defending deep and counterattacking. Palhinha is a destroyer, not really the kind of two way player we need to control games from that position. Not really sure what Richy, Bentancur, Johnson, etc are even meant to be.
So the manager doesn't really have at his disposal the quality to dominate games and play expansive football. But he also doesn't have the personnel to sit deep and play on the counter. In the last five years we've gone from negativity for the sake of negativity (Mourinho) to a one-system manager (Conte) to a "it's who we are mate" balls-out attacking approach under Ange. There has been no strategic vision at the club, no consistent approach to recruitment, and seemingly no ability to develop first team players through the academy. And, of course, we're happy to be the club of last resort for players like Xavi who want to play in England, or a place for decent players like Maddison, Kudus, Solanke, etc who aren't exactly turning away top clubs before they sign with us.
Maybe there is the foundation a good team in there somewhere, but it's going to take some joined-up thinking in recruiting and clearing out players, and patience to bring it about.
But this is a haphazardly recruited squad. We don't have the players to play with any style, much less the style of play we want to see. Players like Udogie, Van de Ven, and Porro are very good players, but they're not really cut out for defending deep and counterattacking. Palhinha is a destroyer, not really the kind of two way player we need to control games from that position. Not really sure what Richy, Bentancur, Johnson, etc are even meant to be.
So the manager doesn't really have at his disposal the quality to dominate games and play expansive football. But he also doesn't have the personnel to sit deep and play on the counter. In the last five years we've gone from negativity for the sake of negativity (Mourinho) to a one-system manager (Conte) to a "it's who we are mate" balls-out attacking approach under Ange. There has been no strategic vision at the club, no consistent approach to recruitment, and seemingly no ability to develop first team players through the academy. And, of course, we're happy to be the club of last resort for players like Xavi who want to play in England, or a place for decent players like Maddison, Kudus, Solanke, etc who aren't exactly turning away top clubs before they sign with us.
Maybe there is the foundation a good team in there somewhere, but it's going to take some joined-up thinking in recruiting and clearing out players, and patience to bring it about.