Uk politics...

[Dorset]

Fucking blimey! My MP the odious Oliver Letwin has joined Yvette Cooper, Nicky Morgan and Hilary Benn in their bid for an amendment to stop a no deal Brexit. Tories going with the sensible wing of the Labour party to protect the best interests of the country - maybe there is a glimmer of hope?

 

[Yid]

There will be new political parties after this government is disbanded. I can see a unified coalition to implement the wishes of a peoples vote then a general election where everything changes. Either way its going to be a seriously destabalising few years and both the conservatives and labour imo are finished. Theres room for a moderate workers party because neither of the big 2 represent real people anymore.

Were not all tree hugging loonies or super rich helicopter pilots. Were the oiks in the middle. Socialism doesnt work, its romantic and lovely but we are not evolved enough to allow it to work. We're ultimately selfish cunts, who give a shit about people close to us and no fucker else.

The fact remains that I cant vote for either party, in fact I havent seen anyone who would get my vote.

 

[Dorset]

Imagine a marvellous future where our government could negotiate a deal where:

• We could travel to Europe for holidays and be cared for if accidents or illnesses happened.
• While we were on those holidays we could use our mobile phones without needing to take out a mortgage.
• We could buy electrical products safe in the knowledge that our toasters would not kill us due to rigorous safety standards
• Europeans who wanted to contribute to our economy could come to the UK and work and enrich our culture.
• Europeans who wanted to scrounge off of our system could be deported after 90 days of not receiving any benefits.
• We could trade with the rest of the world on great terms due to the bargaining power of the world's biggest trading block.
• We could be involved in and benefit form a huge pool of talent developing technical and medical breakthroughs.
• We could buy high quality medicines cheaply and help the NHS cope with the rising cost pressures.
• Our businesses could trade with the world's biggest trading block without duties, red tape or hassle.
• Our children could study, live and work all across Europe giving them so many more opportunities.
• We could have great cooperation with security forces across a continent, helping to stop terrorism and organised crime.
• Our country could earn huge tax revenues from financial services who would stay in London instead of moving to Frankfurt.
• We could export our food and import quality, tasty food from Europe easily and cheaply.
• We had complete sovereignty over our laws.
• We had control of our borders and were not forced to be part of the Shengen agreement.
• We had a say in the future of Europe and a veto over anything we really didn't like.

If only a world like that could exist.

Yes of course that is what we have now, but no blue passports, so let's throw away all that because just over a third of the electorate were misled by facist and self-interested liars and the ones who still support this Brexit nonsense are xenophobic arsewipes who really, really hate foreigners and anybody who is different from them.

Merry Christmas to all - except the Brexiteers, fuck you very much.

 

[Dorset]

Another few things would be nice to have if we could get a great 'deal'.:

• Privacy protection on the internet so you don't get spammed so much.
• Closing tax loopholes and 'legal' offshore tax avoidance.
• Protection if drones close an airport and you are flying to Europe, maybe hotel accommodation and food?
• Keeping the barbaric death penalty banned, do modern civilisations need to resort to medieval punishment?
• Removing sewage from beaches - with the biggest and best environmental regulations in the world
• Investments in infrastructure, helping disadvantaged towns like Cornwall and West Wales - the EU giving around €1,000 per head, that would be nice. How about helping to create about 70,000 jobs in the North or England and 80,000 in Scotland and Wales. If only they would do something like that

Yep, geuss what? Already sorted with our membership of the EU. I know the facists will see the lack of a death penalty as not being an advantage, that's because they rather like the idea of the middle ages where brown people, gays, people who spoke in a funny language and anybody who was different would be burned at the stake, nazis eh? What are they like?

 

[Dorset]

You don't know what you've got till it's gone

 

[Yid]

 

[Rev John Ripsher]

there is only one reason anyone would double down on stupidity and actively support the catastrophe of 'no deal'- they are facist, nazi, foreigner hating retards.

Got it off your chest? Get yer meds adjusted.

 

[Rev John Ripsher]

Of fundamental importance is democracy.

There was a vote in 2015 to authorise the referendum at the general election.

There was the vote to leave, which was won with the largest number of votes cast for anything in our nation’s history. And there was a general election where both main parties said they would respect the result.

Now, a few people who don’t want to leave are trying to stop this happening. That threatens the democracy of our country. Whether there is a deal or not is secondary to implementing what 17.4 million people voted for.

 

[Yid]

Of fundamental importance is democracy.

There was a vote in 2015 to authorise the referendum at the general election.

There was the vote to leave, which was won with the largest number of votes cast for anything in our nation’s history. And there was a general election where both main parties said they would respect the result.

Now, a few people who don’t want to leave are trying to stop this happening. That threatens the democracy of our country. Whether there is a deal or not is secondary to implementing what 17.4 million people voted for.

Glad you love democracy..... so you wont bitch or moan if there is another vote asking the same question where even more people vote.

 

[Rev John Ripsher]

Glad you love democracy..... so you wont bitch or moan if there is another vote asking the same question where even more people vote.

Another vote is anti-democratic, BUT.... if you really want one, just for you, how about
1. Vote for the P.M's deal.
2. Vote for WTO rules.

 

[Yid]

Another vote is anti-democratic, BUT.... if you really want one, just for you, how about
1. Vote for the P.M's deal.
2. Vote for WTO rules.

Surely if the people vote to stay.... you simply cant argue it.... its precious democracy. The more people that vote, the more democratic it is.....

Why not chuck it on the ballot paper.... democracy will sort the rest out...

No real argument to that other than not wanting to be democratic.

 

[Don Diaz]

Another vote is anti-democratic, BUT.... if you really want one, just for you, how about
1. Vote for the P.M's deal.
2. Vote for WTO rules.

Why is it undemocratic to have a second vote? The last one was 2 and half years ago and much has changed since. I think the electorate are now far more knowledgeable of what all this means, whereas initially many people voted based on sound bites, lies and anecdotes.

We have a vote for a new government every 5 years, this is way more important so it’s very important that we get it right. Maybe some people couldn’t believe their luck that they won first time around and are fearful of a reverse?

If Brexit is what the people want then let’s check and if everyone is still sure, fine Brexit will win again. Seems to make sense to me.

 

[Rev John Ripsher]

Surely if the people vote to stay

Just for the sake of an answer, suppose any 2nd ref however anti-democratic widens the existing percentage?

There are many people that voted to stay in the EU originally but now want the government to just get on with it. It could well be vastly more than those that have changed their mind only one way. We will, however, never find out.

 

[Yid]

Just for the sake of an answer, suppose any 2nd ref however anti-democratic widens the existing percentage?

There are many people that voted to stay in the EU originally but now want the government to just get on with it. It could well be vastly more than those that have changed their mind only one way. We will, however, never find out.

When the PM's deal is eventually voted down... we are left with no deal. There are enough MP's knowledgeable enough to realise that us would be generationally damaging to our country to pursue that agenda and would 100% not want that on their conscience..... therefore the only way of wriggling out of being responsible for destroying the future of 61 million people and generations of those yet to even be conceived.... would be to allow the people to make that choice.

Tell me this... why are you so opposed to democracy? Surely this would be the ultimate "will of the people"...!

 

[Rev John Ripsher]

Tell me this... why are you so opposed to democracy? Surely this would be the ultimate "will of the people"...!

That is incredibly disingenuous of you. You know very well that another vote would be anti-democratic.

Keep voting until you get the "right" result, eh?

 

[Yid]

Why is it undemocratic to have a second vote? The last one was 2 and half years ago and much has changed since. I think the electorate are now far more knowledgeable of what all this means, whereas initially many people voted based on sound bites, lies and anecdotes.

We have a vote for a new government every 5 years, this is way more important so it’s very important that we get it right. Maybe some people couldn’t believe their luck that they won first time around and are fearful of a reverse?

If Brexit is what the people want then let’s check and if everyone is still sure, fine Brexit will win again. Seems to make sense to me.

That is incredibly disingenuous of you. You know very well that another vote would be anti-democratic.

Keep voting until you get the "right" result, eh?

This was answered and you didnt respond....

 

[Don Diaz]

That is incredibly disingenuous of you. You know very well that another vote would be anti-democratic.

Keep voting until you get the "right" result, eh?

That is not what I’m suggesting, but I think it’s exactly what Brexiteers are fearful of? A reverse of the original decision.

I think it’s very important that the turnout is maximised to give the vote the max legitimacy as possible and should the vote go the same way as the first, then the whole country will have to back it in the best way possible for everyone’s future benefit. At this stage, however it’s undeniable at least in my view that it should happen and was intimated I think by the Labour Party as long ago as 2 years when we knew what the deal looked like.

It is perfectly democratic, almost the definition of it in fact.

 

[Yid]

That is not what I’m suggesting, but I think it’s exactly what Brexiteers are fearful of? A reverse of the original decision.

I think it’s very important that the turnout is maximised to give the vote the max legitimacy as possible and should the vote go the same way as the first, then the whole country will have to back it in the best way possible for everyone’s future benefit. At this stage, however it’s undeniable at least in my view that it should happen and was intimated I think by the Labour Party as long ago as 2 years when we knew what the deal looked like.

It is perfectly democratic, almost the definition of it in fact.

Again mate case in point. I 100% would have to accept that result. Yes I may disagree with it, but it's the right thing to happen. If people still want out they'll vote for it. If people dont they all vote for it. People will have the chance to decide what type of future they want and can base it on the known facts. Not the lies and spurious horse shit that was trotted out 2+ years ago.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

That is incredibly disingenuous of you. You know very well that another vote would be anti-democratic.

Keep voting until you get the "right" result, eh?

Or as most reasonable and intelligent people might suggest, a legitimate vote now that the actual cards are on the table...rather than the xenophobic vote that it was first time around.

It seems that the only people afraid of a second vote are the Brexiteers, now that their whole sham has been exposed.

 

[Dorset]

Them fucking nazis eh? 'Democracy - A One Day Only Special Offer', believe the lies and you and the country are fucked forever, no refunds, no cooling off period, free armband with every vote!

Only these fucking nutcases could say that a democratic vote on the options available would be undemocratic. Democracy should be a progressive ongoing system, people should be able to make democratic decisions on the facts as they become known. The cunts don't like facts though do they? Facts fuck over all their bullshit lies and toxic hatred and will hopefully kick their disgusting arses back under the bridge for a few decades.

 

[Rev John Ripsher]

The cunts don't like facts though do they? Facts fuck over all their bullshit lies and toxic hatred and will hopefully kick their disgusting arses back under the bridge for a few decades.

The above quote seems to mirror yourself.

 

[Yid]

Or as most reasonable and intelligent people might suggest, a legitimate vote now that the actual cards are on the table...rather than the xenophobic vote that it was first time around.

It seems that the only people afraid of a second vote are the Brexiteers, now that their whole sham has been exposed.

Again, spot on. What is so disappointing though mate is the fact that intelligence is not governing peoples thoughts. I know you can't rely on intelligence for everyone but for the majority, I believe you can. Most who are adamant that "out means out" or "leave means leave" are basing this on either prejudices or blind ignorance.

They are either bigoted and don't like foreigners or not willing to admit they were lied to and prepared to change their mind and views.

Incidentally as an individual you can only grow by challenging your own views. Good and bad. If you challenge your views and beliefs regularly you allow yourself to change and grow. Some people dont know how to examine their core beliefs behind their views and opinions and those people are the ones who the right wing parties dig their claws into and manipulate.

Either way as you have articulated... they do seem to be in the minority now that the facts have been exposed.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Again, spot on. What is so disappointing though mate is the fact that intelligence is not governing peoples thoughts. I know you can't rely on intelligence for everyone but for the majority, I believe you can. Most who are adamant that "out means out" or "leave means leave" are basing this on either prejudices or blind ignorance.

They are either bigoted and don't like foreigners or not willing to admit they were lied to and prepared to change their mind and views.

Incidentally as an individual you can only grow by challenging your own views. Good and bad. If you challenge your views and beliefs regularly you allow yourself to change and grow. Some people dont know how to examine their core beliefs behind their views and opinions and those people are the ones who the right wing parties dig their claws into and manipulate.

Either way as you have articulated... they do seem to be in the minority now that the facts have been exposed.

The thing is mate, even as an Aussie this right-wing propaganda machine that has taken over the UK (and other countries) affects me. It affects all decent human beings in as much as we live in a global community (something that the Brexit mob have conveniently forgotten) and there is always a ripple effect that goes past your own shores. I have many close friends in the UK and some of their lives are going to be turned upside down by this. It is putting unreasonable questions as to the future course of a relationship for two of my close friends in particular (an English/Spanish couple) and frankly, the whole episode disgusts me.

Nazi Germany really took off when one group of oxygen thieves decided they didn’t like a group of Jewish traders in Munich. I’d like the someone from the Brexit lynch mob to explain to me (using something close to evidence which is a new concept for most of them) how this is philosophically any different.

In Australia, the decent are clawing ground back off the fascist pricks that have been dictating the agenda for too long. Their racist agenda has also been exposed.

Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

The above quote seems to mirror yourself.

I’ll take that over ignorant morons quoting likeminded fascists to make their point.

 

[Don Diaz]

Has this thread now just got too toxic even for intelligent grown ups like us? It’s a Spurs football fans forum after all. Maybe I’m being a soft wet liberal and the the cut and thrust is good for all?

My views are very clear, and obviously completely correct in company with the other like minded views on here, over and out of this debate.

 

[Yid]

Has this thread now just got too toxic even for intelligent grown ups like us? It’s a Spurs football fans forum after all. Maybe I’m being a soft wet liberal and the the cut and thrust is good for all?

My views are very clear, and obviously completely correct in company with the other like minded views on here, over and out of this debate.

But that is the trouble mate, if you are baraked into silence and inaction then you allow that false idol to grow.

I will challenge those views I see as destructive to my and your children's future wherever it is. It doesn't necessarily need to be name calling and waving of pitchforks but it does seem to end up that way when the facts come up against soundbites and incipt bigoted vitriol.

People generally get pissed when their values are shown to be nothing but bullshit and bigotry. They dont like being a racist but they are more than happy to act like a racist.

Soz mate but if you see it, you should challenge it.

 

[Dorset]

Has this thread now just got too toxic even for intelligent grown ups like us? It’s a Spurs football fans forum after all. Maybe I’m being a soft wet liberal and the the cut and thrust is good for all?

My views are very clear, and obviously completely correct in company with the other like minded views on here, over and out of this debate.

If you turn a blind eye to facism then that's what you get. A football forum is part of the real world so why would you say or not say here what you would elsewhere? Is it too toxic to call a facist out in the street, in the pub, or anywhere else? Personally if someone is a xenophobe then I hate the bollocks off him and always will, I don't care if he the biggest Spurs supporter in the world.

This is not politics. You can talk politics. You can discuss politics. There is nothing to discuss about anything, including football with closet nazis who have been denied their normal avenues of hatred with the growing dislike and normal decent society's rejection of racism and homophobia and now aim their disgusting views at Europeans and muslims. You can carry on pretending that nothing has changed, chat away nicely knowing that their true colours have been shown, I can't and won't do that. Luckily the Internet has the same options that are valuable in real life so I ignore them.

 

[Don Diaz]

But that is the trouble mate, if you are baraked into silence and inaction then you allow that false idol to grow.

I will challenge those views I see as destructive to my and your children's future wherever it is. It doesn't necessarily need to be name calling and waving of pitchforks but it does seem to end up that way when the facts come up against soundbites and incipt bigoted vitriol.

People generally get pissed when their values are shown to be nothing but bullshit and bigotry. They dont like being a racist but they are more than happy to act like a racist.

Soz mate but if you see it, you should challenge it.

I agree and have on many occasions above as have lots of others. I just wonder if there is anything new to add.

 

[Dorset]

I agree and have on many occasions above as have lots of others. I just wonder if there is anything new to add.

Probably not, but maybe if just one person who was misled buy the illegal, lying leave campaign realises that once you strip away all the lies and disprove the fantasy Brexit dividend theories - the only possible reason to still support this nonsense is misguided elitism and xenophobia then maybe they'll join the fight to save the future of our kids and grandkids?

I expect the vast majority of chaps here don't come into the thread very often - probably the same ones who couldn't be arsed voting in the referendum, they are on my list. So as this is an isolated thread I wouldn't worry too much about it - and if it upsets the bigots that's one of them there fabled Brexit dividends.

 

[Dorset]

The Tories revealing a bit more of their true colours. Angela Leadsom has said that parliament can not stop a no deal if May's deal is rejected. She is saying that Theresa May, not parliament govern the country, that is a dictatorship not a democracy. Hopefully she will be proved wrong, she is despicable even for a fucking Tory and they are most totally despicable.

Jeremy Corbyn has said he will negotiate a better Brexit but will still go through with Brexit, which is contrary to the wishes of over 60% of the Labour party. I have written to him via the labour Party asking for him to explain why, I am not expecting a reply because he seems partial to a left wing dictatorship that he will build from the ashes of the Tory party when Brexit fucks the country so far up the backdoor that they will all slink off to their second and third homes in Europe to spend the money they have made backing against the pound.

What a choice the British voter has. Syphillis or Gonorrhoea, choose now. No wonder people are taken in by the lies of the facists.